[Music]
I'm glad that we're having this
conversation because
there's just it's more so just to
relieve any possibility, right? Because
you know how past things in the internet
have been in regards to stuff like this,
right?
Right. Right.
>> So,
and also I just have a concern in in
terms of like the motivation of your
video considering how interconnected you
are. It's kind of good to have this
verification about it.
>> Um just so that there's like
>> we can understand from what angle you
were trying to get at with that video
and like at least get a statement out
there as to what your thought process
was. Like I know I asked you questions
in terms of like the actual production
side of it, but I never asked for your
like independent thought on it because I
know that you have opinions and things
and
of feelings. So my first thing that we
should probably talk about is in regards
to the Saber Spark thing cuz in your
email in your video you mentioned that
he had like some sort of crush on you.
So that indicates that you at least kind
of knew each other,
right? Um, so it we met because we were
supposed to do the um the bronies collab
together. We actually met for the
not rainbow rocks. Um
the Halloween one, I think, with Race
Escape in it. Uh no, no, no, not maybe.
No, it was it was um like Chibi Ponies,
something like that. Like it was like
3.5. I can find it. Um, I just don't
remember off the top of my head. So,
>> it was a bon it was a bronies react
video as far as you're remembering
correctly.
>> Oh, yeah, for sure. Like I just don't
remember what it's specifically called,
but let me let me check. I could
probably find it pretty easily.
>> Right. And AC best race best that guy.
He's like the same guy that had that
like weird skit with Michelle and Gabe
being racist and [\h__\h]
>> Yeah. Yeah. Um, I know I know both of
them. I know Saber a little bit better.
Um, I've
>> Is like a friend of Sabers or something?
>> They're they're close friends. Yeah.
>> Are they still friends?
>> To my knowledge,
>> um, I don't know 100%,
but um, Race Bass is very
non-confrontational,
>> right?
>> So, he might just be laying low, but
we're not very close, so I don't know
for sure.
>> Were they also at Gab's wedding? Was he
the blonde guy?
>> Yes.
>> Okay. Okay, I figured cuz I see his face
a lot and I'm like where have I keep
seeing this guy's face before?
>> That's when I was doing my research. I
kept seeing this guy. I'm like okay he's
the guy that hosts the pro the bronies
react but he's also also at the wedding
I think.
>> So you and Saber were at least within
the same circles. Would you guys
consider each other like actual friends
or was it more so like you just got you
guys just kind of knew each other from
like other people? Well, we were h the
the the concern that I guess wasn't
clear in the video is that we were
hanging out independently of production
of the Brony's React stuff. And what I
thought was a friendship thing he
I think he was trying to I think feel me
out as far as romantic stuff, but that's
um a history Saver has. He
um like I mentioned in the video, but
just to be more specific, um I know his
last girlfriend before this one, he also
met at a con and was a cosplayer. I had
never met her. I just know of her.
>> So um again, the pattern of him using I
don't want to say his influence, but
whatever it is to um to
to use it to get girls, I guess.
>> Here it is.
My Little Pony generation 3 reaction.
>> Okay. All right. So, you you were at
least friendly enough with them to
consider them like at least like would
you I guess to get to specifics of that,
is it would you consider them like an
actual like friend outside of work or
was this like a work relationship kind
of thing where it's like oh yeah, he's
my friend but just from like job stuff?
Um
little I guess a little bit of both. Um
so I
cuz cuz we didn't really have like
during that period of um
uh the videos in between. Um
uh we were hanging out pretty not
regularly but like um a bit. He wasn't
in college and I was at the time. So
he'd drive I'm not going to tell you
what city it's in, but um yeah, he he
would drive to um see me um a couple of
times. And there was one time where I
was at my parents house um and he drove
to my parents house. Um
>> how much older is Saber in comparison to
you? Because you said he wasn't in
college, but you were.
>> Um I'd have to look it up. I'm 31 right
now.
>> Okay. He's like 35, I think, isn't he?
>> Yeah, that sounds about right.
>> Uh, Saber Spark age.
>> Oh, 36.
>> Okay. So, he's like five years older
than you were.
>> Mhm.
>> Okay. So,
what what was like the first like uh
what was the date or at least the year
it was that you guys actually like first
met in person? cuz like the the whole
bronies react thing was in 2014, but you
guys were at least still talking online
through I'm assuming Skype because that
seems to be the only thing that
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um so we met for
um that um this video. So, I remember
like there was a trailer um for um this
project and Saber was going like we were
shooting in a park and Saber was going
around in like a pink wig
>> and like doing a Pinkie Pie bit from
what I remember. So, that's still up so
you can go find that. But, uh that was
the our first time meeting.
>> Okay. And what year was that?
>> Um whatever the videos say. So, it looks
like it's 2014.
>> Okay. So, this is all 2014. This is
still
after 2012. Okay. Um, so I I guess this
is the question I had when I texted you
originally that we got in call for. Was
there anything that they particularly
without revealing too much, was there
anything that they said when they told
you this story that made you be like,
"Oh, yeah, no, this person's telling the
truth." Or,
>> um, there's a lot of things that make me
feel like they are telling the truth.
Um, I think we discussed this before,
but I had even heard I forgot, but I had
heard whispers of a conflict between
Saber and um, their partner over time
um, at the time over this. So, um, but I
didn't remember the context. I wasn't I
didn't know who they were at all. Um, so
I don't I' we've I've never met them in
person to my recollection. Um
but so when they came and they told the
story I was like oh yeah I vaguely
remember hearing something like this.
Um, so there was that. It was um and
then our
um experiences with Saber matched up
pretty closely where he would um pose as
kind of the you know friendly fanboy
essentially to the fans. Um, and then he
would kind of use that as a stepping
stone for like to seek romantic
intentions.
>> So that that matched between both of us,
>> right? You said you don't remember any
specifics about like the whisper. Do you
was this cuz this whole thing where you
finally were meeting Saber happened 2
years after it initially happened. Um,
when you me mention whispers, are you
talking about like was this ever like in
discussion ever or
>> um without giving too much away? Um, my
generalized um friend group and um the
the partner were just were discussing
it, but it was stuff I overheard, not
stuff I was directly told from my
remember. Yeah, it was at least 2016
2017.
um the stuff was. So, um yeah. Um hard
to remember, but I don't think I was
ever told directly. It was just kind of
like a he said, she said kind of thing
because as the assumption is going right
now, Saber assumed he had consent to do
it and it was consensual and he didn't
understand why the the partner was mad
at the time.
>> Okay. So, you mentioned he said, she
said, and he having like a consent
thing. So would the whispers have been
like
were the whispers directly like an
actual rape accusation or just like a
sexual encounter he had that like was
like a whisper?
>> Um a little bit of both.
>> So So that was the confusing part. And I
also I thought it was confusing that
they were like talking about at a con of
all places. Um, so it kind I kind of
didn't know enough and it was kind of
like it's not my business cuz I don't
know, you know, um, if that makes any
sense.
>> Yeah. Was it just none of your business
because like it's in regards to
somebody's sex life and you're like,
"Ah, that's weird. I don't know why
we're talking about this kind of thing."
that um we I wasn't I like I was only um
like on friendly terms with Saber for
about a year or so.
>> So I wasn't really talking to him. Like
we obviously ran into each other a lot
because we're both doing the brony um
con scene essentially, but it was just
kind of like cordial. We didn't really
hang out.
>> Um that kind of thing. So, um, and then
the partner I knew better, but you know,
it seemed like it wasn't my business to
be like debating that, um, regardless.
So,
>> Okay. Gotcha. Um, what was it that like
made you like cuz I saw somewhere like
back in 2023 I I don't I think the
controversy was around the whole bent
key thing or whatever the hell um with
Saber Spark when he made that whole
Bluey ripoff thing. And you mentioned
that like that whole situation doesn't
surprise you cuz you don't like Saber
like you don't think he's a good guy.
Was that like in relation to that or
were there other things that made you be
like I don't like this person? Um is
that something I tweeted cuz I honestly
don't remember.
>> It was in 2023. Um it got archived on
Reddit or something like that because
people were talking about like Sabers
Spark said that like he couldn't cancel
his bent key subscription when he made
the Chipchilla video or something. Um,
and people were mad at him for that
because it's like, why didn't you just
pirate it and it just seems like you're
giving your money to a hateful
organization that you're criticizing as
hateful.
>> So, that was that was the context of it.
And you said something along the lines
of like this doesn't surprise me. I
don't know if you got added or
something, but like you're like that
doesn't surprise me. Saber doesn't it
was um not I won't like basically was
like I won't get into too much details,
but from my recollection, Saber's not a
good person sort of thing.
Um yeah. Um I didn't know about the this
like the hard rate stuff until um
relatively recently in the production of
the video, but I think we talked about
that a little bit um the timeline of
that. So, um it was in relation to um
how he treated me and um specifically
like once he started date like it was
just kind of weird stuff once he started
dating Gabe sister like he I didn't
really follow it too much but like um I
know I like I think he'd like do things
like compare himself to Gollum and be
like I'm so lucky I have you know you
know a girl even though I look like you
know, a butt essentially. So things like
that. He got really
obsessively into that relationship from
an outsers's perspective. Like he just
stopped, you know, got in
Yeah. just kind of lost contact with
everyone it seemed like.
>> Okay.
>> Um
>> with Yeah. with Gab's sister. And then I
remember Gabe and him had some sort of
argument about it near the end when they
broke up. Um, but I wasn't there. This
is what I was told by him at the time.
And that um, the breakup had to do with
her issues, quote unquote. So, he didn't
seem to take any responsibility for the
breakup, but like, you know, it was
consensual, wasn't my business, like
whatever. Was he dating Gab's sister
around the time that like you heard
those like whisper rumors or was that
what that was in relationship to or
>> I don't think I he only dated Gab's
sister for like six months so I don't
think so.
>> Okay. Okay. Got you. So like just cuz
I'm confused by like not to get into
specifics but like when you said like
whispers about that like I'm just trying
to get into like a specific without too
much. Was it was the rumor thing that
you were talking about like a cheating
thing?
>> No, it was so like this is again so I
remember the partner and Saber kind of
discussing it at a con and this is kind
of what I heard overheard specifically.
Um, so it was
them confronting Saber because um, the
rape victim felt like it was a rape and
>> the partner was obviously mad about that
and I'm sure Saber played it off, you
know.
>> Oh, so he was confronted. That's what
that was.
>> Oh, okay. So, okay, that would make
sense cuz um, from the
what was it? Who was that? Jessa girl or
whatever the hell and Amy that was also
on Twitter or Blue Sky or something and
they said that like this person told
them about this back in 2013 or
something like they opened up in 2013 I
believe.
>> Okay. So then at the con which would
have been 2014 I'm assuming is when this
was one Babcon one time. So um I think
it was my first Babscon. So that sounds
about right. Mhm.
>> Um,
so, um,
>> was 20 was Babscon at 2014 or was that
the year after that?
>> Um, I think it was I think it was that
it was been 2015 then. So, yeah, it was
after we had our our friendship,
whatever you want to call it.
>> Okay. So, it would have been 2 years
after they started telling close people
about it. Okay, that makes sense.
>> Okay, so just timeline thing. Um, Saber
had this had two incidences in 2012 that
he thought were consensual but
apparently weren't. Um, victims started
opening up to people in their life
around 2013 and then in 2015
uh there was that whole confrontation
you overheard. Uh, but you specifically
only really knew Saber around 2014 for
AC race whole video and that thing.
>> AC best race. No. Um yeah, so like we
were introduced because we we realized
we lived together. So we not lived live
close enough for to drive. Um so he he
um so I guess that's I don't remember
the specifics, but that's how the the
trailer for um generation 3 was decided
because we could both shoot it together.
Mhm.
>> Um like so um yeah, but again like my
thing wasn't really like it wasn't
anything like rape. It I just thought he
was like
kind of playing me along a little bit.
Um, right.
>> But it, you know, so it's like I just
kind of chopped it up to like, you know,
maybe he's just, you know, I don't know
actually. I don't know. I guess like
>> weirdo like why is he only like it was
naive of me I guess to think that maybe
like we were we could just be friends.
But to be fair, I also have a lot of guy
friends um as well. But um
>> but yeah, like that's
>> Yeah.
>> Did he like ever give you into like
I guess this is a weird question because
you keep saying that like the way that
he like went about asking. I guess I can
check back in the chat what you said
about that. I'm trying to look back at
what it is. I like have it shrink down.
>> No, I got you. That's during the time
during that time. Yeah, it's so much
easier for me to remember [\h__\h] I mean,
I have an okay memory. It's just not
fantastic. So it says to clarify during
this time he would ask questions like we
are just friends, right? Like that seems
so weird to like kind of randomly bring
up. Was that just kind of his flirtation
style or something where he would just
kind of drop in? Yeah. Like you know
what I mean? Like the that that reads to
me like somebody who doesn't know how to
flirt or something.
>> Um yeah. I think what happened
um and my parents have met Saber Spark
which is great. So like I' I've I've
been able to describe this as like
remember Stephen that guy that came over
the house one time.
>> Um
>> no I mean this is kind of a side thing
but like um we were having like chicken
that night. I don't really like my dad's
chicken. Um, and and he was like, "I'm
just going to take the littlest piece
ever." Because he was trying to be, I
guess, overly polite. And my dad is
like, "What the [\h__\h] is he doing?" Like,
"Just take the just take chicken." So,
um,
>> yeah, kind of weird, but yeah. Um,
that's how it would um, he'd phrase it.
So, he asked me that like two or three
times
>> um, via Skype. Um, and I didn't think
anything of it. I thought like, okay,
that's a fair question. like let's put
some boundaries in. But I remember like
when we went out like um he'd um he'd
really offer to buy buy like whatever it
was or whatever. So I guess again I was
stupid about that too. But what are you
going to do?
>> I mean that could also just be like a a
chivalry thing where it's just like
men's got to be shiver so they like
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Um yeah, that's what I assumed. or
he was just trying to be like establish
a good business relationship too by like
and he you know he knew I was in college
I didn't have any money kind of thing
too so there could have been a multiple
things but like what I thought was
setting boundaries from the beginning
was actually him just trying to kind of
poke at me to see if I was willing to to
change my mind.
>> Gotcha. Okay. So, when that whole thing
with the Chris thing happened, uh, just
to clarify, was he like super good
friends with Chris or anything, or was
he just kind of like
going off on you for something else? cuz
>> um I mean I I don't know what the
relationship is like now, but I do
remember um cuz Saber did an like Chris
interviewed Saber at some point and and
Chris you like not used but he got
contact through um with Saber through me
and uh I remember Saber complaining
about him at the time. Maybe his opinion
has changed. Um
>> wait, Saber complained about Chris?
>> Mhm.
>> Oh, okay. I just find that so weird that
he would be then so defensive when with
the whole Twitter thing that you showed
me.
>> I think it was more I think that was
more of a reputational thing and he was
like, "Oh, well, you never brought me
this directly, so I'm being blindsided
by it. How could you?" When I when I
knew that wasn't true.
>> Gotcha. Gotcha. Okay. Yeah, cuz from the
from the way that it looks like in the
actual like Twitter thing, uh, like did
someone like tag Saber Spark or
something and then that's how we got
involved?
>> I purposely didn't tag Saber because
Saber was like a footnote in that that
email anyway. Um and so the the the
context around that was um just to be
just to be clear. So I because of my
personal experiences I did not feel
comfortable going to Saber directly to
talk about Chris. So I am or was maybe
at this point but um I I was um a couple
people that work on his staff will
remain anonymous. Um, and I was told
that Chris and
um, Saber had a confrontation
>> um, about it, but this was after the
call. So, I think Chris
reassured him that it was handled or,
you know, was taken care of. Um, but
Saber never contacted me directly to
confirm that, which I thought was kind
of weird.
>> Well, yeah, especially if he had like a
crush on you at some point. Like I know
at that point um wait so it doesn't say
I thought it had the date on it when
this um Twitter exchange happened. What
year was that? Was that like oh it says
>> the one where he's like
>> the one where he's um calling me a liar
and stuff.
>> Yeah. What year was that in 2024?
>> That was November last year.
>> Okay. Yeah. if he had like a crush on
you in the I I find it interesting that
he would like go off on you like this.
If what you're saying is that he had a
confrontation with Chris about it where
I'm assuming he probably didn't take his
time
>> conversation about it and I like
>> you know Chris assured him that Yeah.
Like what I already said is
>> right. Right. Was Chris in the same
circles as like when you and Sabre were
friends in the 2015 thing happened with
Chris. Were you in was Sabre like in the
same circles as you guys?
>> Um Chris was Chris was working for me
and then he was doing his own thing. He
I don't know if he still uses it but he
has his own channel
>> uh where he reviews DVDs and [\h__\h] So I
think he was like doing a vlog for um
like that that Babscon at the time. I
don't think he was working for me
anymore, but we were like on friendly
terms. Um
Um So,
but Chris was kind of like
um not on the same level, I guess,
because we I think we're we were
community guests and Chris was just kind
of like a fan getting um
responses from people. Not that it
matters what the titles were, just kind
of like in contribution to the show. and
then or the convention and then um
um yeah so he Chris was not in the same
social circle that um than Steven was to
my knowledge.
>> Okay. So then how did uh uh Saber Spark
and Chris eventually just like was is he
part of like his like staff or something
like is he an editor from what I
>> Yeah, I think he's Yeah, he's an editor
to my knowledge.
>> Okay, gotcha. All right, that's what I
wondering.
>> Yeah, I was going to say I don't know
how they they got in contact again once
Saber started making like being more
productive as far as making content and
he switched from brony guy to cartoon
guy, but I imagine Saber like put out
like, "Hey, I need editors. I'll pay
you." And he he raised his hand.
>> Was there anybody else that Saber had on
his editing staff other than Chris that
like he had issues with? Um, well, I
wouldn't say he he had issues with
Chris. I think there was an issue with
Chris, but it didn't seem like he
particularly cared. Um, not to my
knowledge. No. Um, but, you know, I
don't even know everyone on his staff.
Like, I just know a couple people. So,
>> right. Cuz like this is unrelated. I was
just curious cuz like I I don't know if
you know this, but uh Caberspark has a
Kiwi Farms. Um, not that that matters
cuz most of that they do over there is
just kind of [\h__\h] that he's a liberal
that likes Bluey and it's like I don't
[\h__\h] care. But they were talking
about Cosmodor at some point over there.
Were they like friends because they were
in the same circles as like Cartoon Bros
or what? Yeah. Um,
I don't watch and have never watched
Saber's content bec.
So, um, a lot of the I mean, to to be
blunt, like you know, you you feel like
you're friends with someone, but then
they only want to get in your pants. It
will kind of like make you mad at them.
Um,
>> right. Sure.
>> Um, but
like
you're the first one that's brought that
up and I was expecting um that to be
brought up sooner, but I guess that just
shows you how bad the [\h__\h] video was.
But yeah, I think I don't know the
details. I just know what the public
knew. He was an editor as well, I think,
for for Stephen. Um, he he got fired
because of creepy things. So, I that's
why when my original assumption dealing
with all this is that Chris would be
fired immediately because he would be a
PR problem. Um, and so DA Games had to
check if Chris was still employed by
Saber and Saber said yes. And that was
the context for that that seasoned
desist is they checked to see cuz I was
like oh he like Saber fired him and then
um DA Games is like no actually not and
I was just like oh that's that's
disappointing.
>> Okay I got you. So when it comes to like
Saber and DA Games I guess I don't
really understand cuz DA Games for me is
all has always just been like oh that's
a a YouTube channel that's ran by a
couple people. Are they like some sort
of like LLC that's like works in tangent
with Saber or something? Like is Saber
under like any sort of contract with
them or they are they just like in the
same like work circles or something?
>> Um I well the only the the connecting
factor is Chris. So the originally the
video was about Chris and then Saber
would have a footnote saying oh we told
Saber he got fired. Cool. That was that
was supposed to be it cuz that's what I
assumed would happen with Saber. Um, but
I don't think they have any I don't
think they have a working relationship
at all. I know DA Games has an LLC and I
think they they have four members of the
channel. I think that was covered a
little bit in the video, right?
>> But um I don't think they work with each
other tangentally.
But um the difference is that um I don't
think um Chris has a presence on Saber
Sparks whatever stuff, but he has a
presence in the DA game stuff. He's on
camera. They'll they'll do like let's
plays where he's on camera,
>> you know, based on the footage we had to
get. So
>> Okay. So before you decided to have like
the feature of this victim's testimony,
right? Like cuz you got this information
like later in production, right? Like we
I think we discussed March or something.
Is that from the last call?
>> Um yeah, that sounds that sounds about
right. I think I started talking late
February or early March. Yeah. But I can
Yeah.
>> Gotcha. So,
so before you had this person's
testimony, why isn't I getting reverb?
That was weird. Before you got this
person's testimony, you're a entire
video was originally just supposed to be
about DA Games. And was Saber supposed
to be more like a side like a little
side piece to that? Cuz like without the
victim's testimony, the mass major the
the majority of what you have in front
of you to work with that ties Saber into
all of this is just that he was like an
[\h__\h] on Twitter. Like not to seem
rude in that sort of assumption, but
like
>> Oh, no. I I got you. I got you. So,
well, yeah, let me be clear. So, the the
stuff with DA Games, I guess, just to be
clear, was things like sharing Lollcon
in places they had access that children
had access to. M
>> um like I think the testimony in the
video about Chris telling a beastiality
story to a minor or a joke or like
flirting with her I think or something
like that.
>> Um and then
um the grooming that was in the DA game
space that they refused to um
to to to do anything about from my
knowledge.
>> Okay. So that your original video was
mostly just about DA game. Uh so this is
what how I'm seeing it, right? Cuz I
made a video with the Black Griffin
stuff and my whole thing with the even
including Sabers Spark was just like to
showcase well he defended him for one,
but also it was more so like the main
focus should be DA Games, but because
people asked Saber Spark, he he replied
and that was more to show it up. Not to
say he's as bad as you know, Black
Griffin, but to say that that's a little
hypocritical. What when you went into
the DA games thing and saw that Saber
Spark was tangentially kind of involved
through defending Chris, was that
supposed to be like before you learned
the victim's testimony was like, "Oh,
this is an example of Saber Spark
defending creepy behavior and that's
hypocritical kind of thing." Um, yeah.
on top of the um the like well I mean he
like from from the knowledge that I know
he talks openly about how he doesn't
defend Lycon and thinks it's disgusting.
Um Chris was sharing Lycon on top of the
sexual harassment story which which
Saber never asked me about for whatever
reason. Um
>> but he confronted Chris about it but he
never got your statement on it. He never
No, he just took Chris at his word for
it that it was handled and Chris.
>> Okay.
>> Yeah.
>> Right. I'm getting the the indication
that this video before the accusations
obviously was supposed to be more so
like a showcase of more hypocrisy on
Saber Spark's end.
>> Yeah. And then the issue of um the
Twitter thread where he was basically
morality shaming me, but he he didn't
know. Like I think I think that the
whole reason Saber even knew about
Chris's um the the sexual harassment
stuff was because I told his staff and
he did not make the connection that um
that this like I was the one who told
the staff. this was just something that
was going around. Uh cuz we did release
a safety report about Chris. Um and um
you know didn't like I yeah I think it's
in the Twitter thread I said several
times like we can DM about this like
let's not
>> like call let's not deal do it this way
and then he kind of refused. So
>> Gotcha. Okay. I see. Okay. So right. So
my assumption and that is correct is
that this was supposed to be more of a
showcase of him being a hypocrite again
kind of thing.
>> Yeah. And using his um platform to
gaslight. Um
>> gotcha.
>> So when you did like
>> am I am I making whatever I should add
too um that was originally the tone for
the the piss on the moon bit. So, I
didn't think Saber was
like he wasn't guilty of like anything
too bad at the time when we conceived
that. It was just kind of him not really
being not taking his responsibilities
of being Chris's boss. Um,
seriously. Um, on top of the Twitter
stuff.
>> Gotcha. Okay. All right. Um, so I I have
to ask this, right? because like
obviously you're very interconnected in
all of this in terms of like you used to
know these people, right? You used to at
least consider them friends. Did that
ever like did you ever think that that
should have at least deterred you from
at least trying to make this video just
because of the personal connection to
it? because it might you you understand
that that could kind of make you seem a
little biased towards what you're
talking about because it's like well I
had a personal wrong against these
people and now I'm getting all of these
stories like you can showcase obviously
like him being an an [\h__\h] to you on
Twitter and whatever the hell like
that's that's a thing that's like people
can view and see but from your own like
personal experiences did you not think
that maybe it's like I might be coming
across as a bit biased and that might
deter like the direction of the video.
Um
yeah, like no, no, not really at all. I
thought that um this would just be
another, you know, like notch in the
saber being creepy to women bit and I
should have just explained what happened
instead of just assuming that email
would tell all. But I purpos like I
think from you what you saw in the 2023
tweet. Um I didn't really want to go on
a go public I guess quote unquote with
my experiences with Saber because they
weren't criminal. He's just kind of like
you know an [\h__\h] Um and you know
that's not really you know that's that's
not really you know worth me to like
talking about I felt like. So
>> Sure.
>> Okay. So, back to just cuz I want to uh
I'm a little curious about this cuz we
kind of went into detail about like the
whispers you heard before this victim
came to you. Was there any particular
reason why cuz I think it would have
helped. Maybe I'm wrong, right? Cuz
maybe that makes you look it could be
seen as one of two ways. Like maybe this
verifies the victim's story more or
maybe it makes you look more biased. I
don't know. Was there any particular
reason why in your video you never
mentioned that you heard whispers of
this back in 2015 or anything? Cuz that
wasn't something that you said in your
video. Um I Well, again, um the victim
was added late into the game, so we just
figure like that was the intention with
like and then it got worse. Um, as far
as So, yeah, I should have done a lot
more explaining cuz I just like part of
the problem with the video the many
problems with the videos. It just
inferred people knew information that
they did not know. Um, so I that's a
good point. I didn't think to to to
include that. But um
but yeah, but at the same time like as
as much as I think that that could have
been a good like part of your whole
thing is like I believe this victim
because I heard whispers of this even
back then, right? And you can be like
>> Yeah, of course. and you're like, I've
heard whispers of this back then, so I
believe this person because now now it's
like, oh, those whispers I heard back
then are now getting even more context
now that I've actually spoken to this
person and met them. But at the same
time, given that you heard whispers of
this back then, right? Uh it could
>> I guess for an audience be like either
you didn't do anything about the
whispering back then or you're
or I guess it's more of an indication
that you were so interconnected into
this and this was so interpersonal you
that maybe you should have let this be
picked up by a third party that wouldn't
have had that bias or something like
that.
>> Um no I get what you mean. Um, again, a
part of another part of the video's
problem is that I was afraid it was
going to get leaked um when when people
were not ready. So, I only gave copies
to people I trust, but also the people I
trust were pretty aware of the situation
before making the video. So, therefore,
um I I guess I could see that. Um
>> it's like a strategy thing I think I'm
thinking of in my head. Like I'm
thinking of all possibilities here, but
it could just be overthinking it at the
same time. You know what I mean?
>> Yeah. Um Oh. Um to clarify too, um I can
I can take ownership of this. Um, so
I knew that they slept together based on
multiple people um, telling me it, but I
wasn't like the the the con
confrontation was my only remembering of
it being a problem. So, um, so I was the
one, this is information that I've
heard, but I was the the one who, um,
who told the victim that he lost his,
um, virginity to her because that's I I
remember hearing that from another party
who was talking about it, who doesn't
who don't like the victim, I should say.
So, they are pretty mad at me right now.
But,
>> who is this person that told you all
this? I haven't read it yet, but they
they just released a public open letter
because um they the oh to get back to
the some of the the chronological stuff
of the story. So um when I emailed
Stephen the first time, I I sent a very
neutral email that says, "Hey, you asked
for a direct email. Here's the direct
email." and he and I waited like a week
and he didn't get back to me, which kind
of pissed me off cuz like I was just
like, well, I'm doing exactly what you
wanted me to,
>> right?
>> And then um then I got more firm and um
talked about other problems I knew
on the staff, but I don't have like the
only evidence I have is staff members
telling me things. So that's what was
censored in the video. Um because I
didn't think that was fair if we didn't
have concrete proof of stuff. Um,
>> so, um, and then his response kind of I
think I think that was obviously that
was a mistake because he had kind of a
angle to respond to saying like, "Oh,
well that's not true and that's not
true." So, you're just like talking
about things that are not true and I'm
just I don't have time for this. Um,
>> right. So, in the second email, I gave
screenshots of the people I talked to
and screenshots of them confirming that
Steven had the information in front of
him. So, Steven,
I'm guessing, panicked
um because he realized he could be
caught in in in a lie um because the the
the the Twitter thread was public. But,
um he took the the thread down. He
deleted it. Um, I don't know in relation
to email or he just maybe it's not the
best look. I don't I don't I think it
was a week after it that I realized it
was but we got immediately. Um,
but um
yeah, I guess I guess we're not friends
anymore, so whatever. Um, do you
remember from your video
Sabers's editor's wife, Casey Fish? Mhm.
Uh, I do recall them defending Black
Griffin.
So, that was one of the people Stephen
assumingly
um because we we are we were I guess.
Yeah, she unfollowed me. I don't think
we're friends anymore, but whatever. Um,
I kind of knew that going in that I was
going to lose her as a friend, but um,
ethically I think it's [\h__\h] up that
you know you're Oh, I can go in that I
can go into that for in a second, but
um, I think Saber asked um, Casey to
kind of calm me down from a PR
standpoint.
And um Casey
um I don't think releasing those
screenshots are fair, but Casey
um
told me that um she tried to kind of use
like, oh, you know, you can make a video
about Chris, but I don't even know why
Saber needs to be mentioned because if
there's any consequences, then my
husband can lose his job. And I'm just
like,
look, lady, like
I get it. And she also inferred things
like, oh, you're just like like what
people are referring now that like, oh,
you did this for your attention. You're
throwing a tantrum on on YouTube to to
an audience. Like that's not what adults
do. And I'm just like, listen here. Um,
I knew I wasn't going to win the art
argument with her, so I just ended it on
a neutral note. Um.
>> Mhm.
>> But I think that's something that
Saberoo did to
kind of um hedge his bets regarding me
is sent Casey to talk to me. Um because,
you know, I did try to ask her what
Saber told her directly and she kind of
kept she kept on dodging that question.
So um
>> like in regards to what? Um,
so, so I proved that I had the
screenshots. He knew I was making a
video about Chris, but to his knowledge
before then, he wasn't going to be
mentioned in the video. Uh, the emails
can confirm that that wasn't the case
and he freaked out and I think he asked
Casey to intervene. Not sure. Um, but
pretty sure. Um, and then Casey would
not tell me what he said, but I'm sure
Steven villainized me and said, "Oh,
she's just a [\h__\h] she's going to do
this for for clout and you know she's
going to ruin my reputation and you know
blah blah blah blah blah blah whatever.
So that's what I assume happened cuz her
tone was very like, you know, this is an
immature thing to do. And I'm just like
like my my gecko cuz I had a
conversation with um um one of the
people that helped me write the script
um for a long time about the ethics of,
you know, should we bring like bringing
Saber in for something? But then we kind
of realized, you know, he Chris is his
employee. He is responsible. he's
responsible for the gaslighting, you
know, like he doesn't get a pass because
he's my friend's husband's boss. Like
that doesn't like that doesn't make any
sense to me.
>> Right. And by the time that you're
having this conversation, this back and
forth, like you weren't discussing just
the whole rape thing with them. You were
talking specifically aware of the rape
thing before that.
>> Okay.
So, most of your confrontations through
email with uh Casey Fish and uh Saber
were just about the Kristoff. Did you
ever
>> like talk to Saber about that by the
way?
>> Like before your video came out, did you
ever like went to him and like, "Hey, do
you have like a something to say about
this or whatever?"
>> Um well, yeah, I've I I can answer both
of your questions. So, I did talk to
Casey via Discord, not email, but I did
so I emailed
Yeah. So, this out of response to the
second email where he said, "Hey, I got
screenshots. Here you go." Like what I
said on Twitter. Um, so, um,
what was the what was the second
question? Sorry. Well, I was asking if
um you ever actually like before your
video when you were like putting that
together and you got the news about uh
the rape thing, did you ever talk to
either of these two, Casey or Saber
about this allegation before?
Um,
yes, without going to Casey, without
going into too much detail, but um, for
the not Saber directly because I assumed
by the Twitter interaction he um, was
afraid to talk to me cuz he was afraid I
was going to secretly record him, which
is like, you know, fair, but um, or do
something with the communications or
something like that, which like, you
know, I don't understand like if if he
kind of knew that going in. I don't know
why he taking like my first email more
seriously, but uh you know, whatever.
>> But in terms of like talking about like
the allegations that came to you from
the victim, you never did. You ever
>> Oh, no, no, no. I never confronted Saber
about the the rape allegations. Um she
um Excuse me. They are very afraid of
Saber. So, they are very afraid that
he's going to
>> like he obviously knows who it is, but
um you know, he he's going to stick his
fan base on them and um they're going to
get harassed.
>> Sure, I got you. But you did you ever go
to Casey about any at any point?
>> Um
Casey was the party that did not like
the victim, so I didn't think there was
a point.
>> Okay, got you. Um, I did want to ask you
in terms of like what you told me,
right? Um, about the allegations against
Sabers Spark because you said that you
wanted to uh, let me go back and
remember what you said. Um, it was
supposed to go up right before the video
to blindside him. Could you elaborate
what you meant by that?
>> Yeah. Yeah. So the idea was
like if the vid if the statement was
just on Twitter um he would have more
control over public knowledge of it. But
if it was on Twitter and in the video
then I was hoping that we would get to a
a wider range of the public before he
had res time to respond. So they were
supposed to kind of interconnect in that
way that you know obvious did not
happen. Um well maybe it happened around
about Yeah, that
um at the same time.
>> Okay. But you do see that like from a
strategy perspective that trying to
blindside a person with allegations this
serious was probably a little
vindictive, I guess is the best way to
put that. Um yeah, I could I can see
that. I guess um at that point with like
I knew like Saber was not interested in
talking to me about the Chris stuff. You
know, I was very clear in my last email
that I didn't want him to contact me
because they
um so it didn't seem like that avenue
open. And even so, um not that that like
I get what you're saying, not that it
okay or that, but
>> Sorry, you're cutting out a lot. Um,
>> oh, sorry.
>> Yeah,
>> let me close the YouTube. Maybe that
will help.
>> Okay. Is that any better?
>> Yeah. I don't know if it's probably on
my end, too, cuz God knows that every
time I enter into my living vicinity,
it's a [\h__\h] Bermuda Triangle, and I
never have good connection ever, but you
know,
>> right?
>> But yeah, you do understand that like
the way you worded that to me is a
little bit of a red flag, right? Cuz
like if you're going to like post
serious allegations about somebody,
first of all, you have to like present
them as like giving them a chance to
respond to them or a legal precedent for
one. And for two, like
if there's like ever, not that I'm
saying that I don't believe anybody in
this story. It's it's usually on the
safer end to try to believe it until
further reason to not believe it. Right.
But you do understand if there's any
chance in hell
>> that this isn't true that then you using
these to blindside somebody off of the
present that you think they're telling
the truth but they're not real could get
you into some really big trouble, right?
>> Yeah. No, I understand that. Um
I think I think it was also a
conversation that she's afraid of Saber.
So,
um I think that was a consideration, but
um yeah, uh they're very afraid of
Saber. So, um
>> I mean I understand that, but like yeah,
from the perspective of this person
violated them, of course they'd be
afraid, but they it could be just the
possibility they're afraid that like
maybe their story won't add up. You know
what I mean? Like it's it's a thing of
like
>> again that's something I probably should
have done. you're you're right.
>> But I mean, not that I like I said, it's
usually on the safer end to like at
least believe it cuz if you if you don't
believe it and you're like, "Nah, you're
a lie. You're wrong." And you turn out
to be incorrect, then you just look like
an [\h__\h]
>> But at the But at the same time, it's
one of those things where if this
person's like lying to you about this,
it could set you up into some real deep
[\h__\h]
>> Yeah. Yeah. I I get that. But I, you
know, I I still believe the victim. So
>> I guess
>> um yeah, I'm not I'm I'm I'm very sure
it happened. I'm not 100% sure, but
based on you know,
>> you're not 100%.
>> Well, as in I don't have like there's
not like evidence of it, right?
>> Um kind of thing. But from everything
I've been told, his behavior matches,
you know, stuff I've been telling you,
it seems to make sense to me.
>> Okay. So, you just believe it on like a
personal experience level sort of thing.
>> Um
the the fact that this wasn't that this
was something that was being talked
about a while ago. um on top of this, on
top of um the experiences matching. Um
yeah, I I guess those were the two
things cuz I didn't really, at least
from what I remember, I don't think I
really talked to um the victim much
until
like they wanted to tell me the story.
And um I helped her. I to be clear about
this because this is this will be a big
thing. Um, I did give her tips on her
testimony. I did not write it. I just
provided some feedback. Very little
feedback. Um, and formatting. Um, so, so
it wasn't like one of those things where
you wrote it for her or anything.
>> No. No. I don't like you like I may be
like, it seems like I may be stupid
based on everything that's happening,
but I'm not That's one stupid thing I
didn't do.
>> Right. Like you're not outwardly
malicious. You're just kind of I I feel
like because you're so interconnected
into all of this that and forgive me, I
don't want to make any assumptions of
your character, but this is just what it
comes across to me that because of how
interconnected you are with Saber and
then getting this information from the
victim, it kind of was more of like a
val Did it feel like validating for you
to know that like this person who you
already didn't have good feelings about
was now suddenly like slapped with
something that is like objectively you
can be like, "Okay, this is a good
reason for me not to [\h__\h] like this
guy." You know what I mean?
>> Um
I guess I mean it was the the experience
of talking to the victim the first time
was more of like,
you know, oh, someone else real like
understands
um what we've gone through because we
both had like those kind of experiences
with him. But it was also like really
emotionally draining. Like I had no idea
like it got it was going to get this bad
as far as
>> you know you know like I said before all
this the most I thought is Saber just
kind of wasn't thinking about how his
actions or lack of actions um had any
long-term consequences.
>> So um you know like that's not a crime.
That's just kind of like you know not
putting things in priority correctly. So
>> Right. Yeah. And like we already
mentioned, like before you even talked
to this victim, the most like when you
were going through this video and
talking about DA game specifically, like
the most you had at that moment really
was just like Saber Spark's just kind of
an [\h__\h]
>> Right. Right. And actually um how I even
>> Victor was um
>> You're breaking out one more time. Um
you didn't say anything important. You
were just talking.
>> Yeah, it's it's all good.
>> Okay, you should be fine.
>> Okay. Um, what I was saying is, um, how
I got in contact with the victim
originally is that, um, um, Brony Fan
dot was in my server for because we had
a, we have a or we did we condensed them
recently, but we had a support session
for section for Gabe fans, like so Gabe
fans could have a place just to kind of
process things, right?
>> Um, I was I would I wasn't really too
close with Gabe, but um, I get why
people were really upset, obviously. Um,
and I was talking I ended up talking in
the video or about the video in a voice
chat concerning the Gabe stuff and
Brunie Fand dot was there and um, he
thought it was interesting because I
assume at that point he was aware of the
the testimony. So, um he told um
Amy, the person on Twitter, um that I
was doing this and then Amy helped me
get in touch with the victim.
>> Gotcha. Okay. So, you got in touch with
the victim through Amy, not really
through pony fand or brony fan don't.
>> I was made aware of it through pony
fandote, but but yeah,
>> but you went to Amy to get in contact.
>> Amy went to me.
>> Oh, okay. because um um I guess Brony
Fand do probably told her I was working
on this and it's like it just kind of
seemed like
um it would be something to include in
the video, you know, without like
obviously tone tone tonal hindsights are
a thing, but
um yeah, so it was already like, oh,
she's she's doing it anyway. We might as
well connect them. So, this is another
thing that can be shared in this video
kind of thing,
>> right? I guess what I'm confused by is
if your main focus for that video was
supposed to be on DA Games, um, and
Sabers Spark was only just a small part
of it. Was when you were telling these
people about this video you were working
on, was Sabers Spark something that you
briefly mentioned and that's what got
them to be like, "Oh, by the way," or is
it more just like, "This is just about
DA Games." And they knew that.
>> Yeah, at that point. So, this was like
shortly before I talked to the victim.
Um it it was Saber had done the things
where he the Twitter thread and um you
know um I think the emails at this
point. Yeah. So
>> okay.
>> Um the reason like so part of the reason
this video took so long is because it
was originally just going to be about
Chris and DA Games until Sabre kind of
made the situation more complicated. Um,
and then it got more complicated with
the victim.
>> Mhm. So,
>> Oh, and just for the record, Oh, go
ahead.
>> Oh, you can just finish up your thought
there because I I think I was going to
redirect, but
>> Okay. Um, just for the record, um, the
first thing we did is try to get the
victim to um go to the police. Um, but
they we looked into it. They called the
the the local station. And um what we
learned is since Saber is the one being
um not convicted, but like accused of
this thing, he could call the police
station, pay a fee, and have access to
the report, and the report would have
the victim's home address. So she,
excuse me, they were afraid that um
Saber would dox them because of that.
Okay. I've never heard of that before. I
didn't know that was a thing. So before,
like when you were speaking to the
victim about this, right? Like when this
initially happened back in 2012, did
they ever make a police report then or
was there was this when you uh first
talked to them the first time they tried
to make a police report?
>> Um I'm not aware that they tried to make
a police report at the time it happened.
Um,
>> did you ever ask or
>> I didn't I didn't think to ask. I just
thought like this is something we need
to cover our bases on because we know as
soon as we release this people are going
to like oh go to the police and then we
can say well you know we tried but that
wasn't a route that the victim wanted to
take. So, um, but my also read on their
personality is they're a little bit, you
know,
kind of
we'll just kind of
um don't like don't want to cause any
trouble kind of vibes.
>> So, I would I would guess is that they
didn't want to do that because they
didn't want to rock the boat. And um at
least from the the bit about the first
testimony, it looks like they didn't
have a lot of friends at that con. So,
you know, they were afraid something
might happen, which, you know,
>> I mean, I get that. Yeah, I get that.
There's,
>> like I said, I already went on a whole
rant at least with my Black Griffin
stuff about how like why people won't
come forward. I mean, there's it's just
an objective uphill battle no matter
what, especially when it comes to stuff
like this. But,
>> right.
>> So, when it just cuz I'm curious cuz I
didn't make the Black Griffin video
because you were looking into it or
anything. I just made it cuz I I thought
the story was kind of [\h__\h] wild. Um,
but I know that there was whispers of it
like Finn mentioned it to me like back
when I was working on my Star Giant
video, but back then the whole mega do
that came out by uh Fandome didn't exist
at that point. Um, so like how long
would you say that you were like
collecting or like talking about
the whole Black Griffin thing?
Um
um this was after um Destiny, the first
victim, spoke out and a little bit
before the second victim that had the
log spoke out. So that was something
that Courtney had to add her to her
video like after it cuz I was like,
"Hey, this came out." And she's like,
"Oh, I should add that." Um,
so like I just was on Twitter and I
believed what happened to her and I
wanted to to be vocal and show show
support.
>> Um, yeah. So that is why in the in that
interview I say like um, you know, I was
busy with this this cluster [\h__\h] but
Courtney this is right up Courtney's
alley to cover if she was interested in
covering it and she was and she did. Did
you introduce Courtney to the whole
situation or was this something that
Okay. So, how long have you I mean I
guess you've known about this vaguely
because like like you said in the
interview with Courtney um you know you
were in the same circles as Gabe and
everything. Um were you aware that like
Saber Spark and Gabe were like friends?
Um
yes, but Saber and Race were closer
friends.
So, um, like
it didn't really seem like I'm surprised
that
they were groomsmen at the wedding. I
guess put it that way. I didn't think
they were that close.
>> Oh, gotcha. All right. So, it was kind
of surprising to you that Saber would
even say something about it at all cuz
you didn't think they were really that
close.
>> Um, can you rephrase that? Like say
something about what? Oh, about
>> what what I'm saying is that Saber Spark
even coming to Gabe's defense is
probably a surprise to you cuz you
didn't think that Saber and him were all
that close.
>> Um,
yeah. I mean, I could see it, but I
didn't think, you know, they weren't
like best friends like like Saber and AC
Reese have kissed before on stage or
something like that. Um, so
you know, not like So that's my level of
judgment right there. So I think he was
just exposed to it a lot because um, you
know, I imagine maybe he talked to
Claire at some point and he sympathized
with Claire. Um,
I don't know what I I don't know what
Saber's um, past is besides his parents
got divorced at one point. So um, he's
alluded to stuff. I don't know. know
that's not my business. But um you know
I guess I think I would
I don't know to be honest. I don't know
how close they are. I guess they were
closer than than I thought though,
>> right? Was there like basic this is just
you can make an assumption, right? cuz I
I know that you're only really close
with Sabre and not with Black Griffin,
but knowing that like Saber went to that
wedding, do you think that it was
possible that around the time that Gabe
was living with Michelle and Claire?
>> Um, or at least with Michelle, not
Claire, like you get what I mean? Like
Michelle was friends with Clare, so they
were all like hanging out fairly when
they were younger.
>> Do you think that like Michelle and
Claire were ever like introduced to
Saber because he was friends with Black
Griffin?
Yeah, I mean it like it like I did a
panel with Claire one time. Um I don't
know if that was that's relevant. Um but
um I imagine they met at a con, you
know, be way before this. So right,
>> you know,
>> cuz Gabe wasn't in the States at that
point. He was living in
>> like with the creepers in Vancouver,
wasn't he?
>> Yeah, but he most of the pony
conventions were in the States. There's
I think there's only one one pony
convention in Canada. So,
>> Gotcha. So, the only times uh I suppose
that Black Griffin and um Sabre would
have ever been like with each other in
person would have been at Cons.
>> Um yeah, like Saber wasn't going to
visit Gabe, put it that way.
>> Gotcha. Okay, that's interesting then
that he went to his wedding if they were
only really like, you know, friends
through meeting each other at cons every
once in a while.
Yeah, I mean, yeah, I don't know how
much they talk, but I guess it just
seemed like, you know, I thought I
thought Gabe had more friends than Saber
and Rice, but you know, what do I know,
>> right? Yeah, I get that. Um, so the the
Brony uh Fandote account came forward to
you and let you know about like the
whole victim thing. Um, was Brony
Fandone like looking into Saber Spark
like as much as he was looking into like
is he just looking into the Black
Griffin thing or is he looking into this
entire friend group?
Um, to my knowledge, I'm kind of to
well, this is a s this is a side, but
I'm kind of frustrated with his recent
behavior, but that's that's not what
this is about. So, um,
from what I remember and what he said,
he was depressed or having mental health
problems at the time and was overwhelmed
when this testimony came to him
>> and didn't really know what to do with
it. But the testimony had not been
written. This was just like um there
being a victim known,
>> right?
>> So,
>> did he ever tell you when the victim
came to him? Was this like sometime
after the Black Griffin thing got big or
was it before?
>> I have no idea. I just know he he he was
told by Amy um about it.
>> Okay, gotcha. And is Amy like a What's
their connection to all this? Cuz I see
>> Oh, yeah. So Amy is um a Peter New's
wife. Peter New plays Big Macintosh on
My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic. Um
>> really?
>> Yeah. Well, it gets it it gets funnier.
So um they actually met because
um Peter was going through a divorce and
she was working um I think Trotcon, one
of the Ponycons, and that's how they
met.
>> Oh,
okay.
That's interesting.
So, she's married to a My Little Pony
voice actor.
>> Mhm.
>> Okay. So, how does how does this my wife
of a voice actor know this victim then?
Just because they're all friends or um
Yeah, I mean like like because of the
timeline obviously. Um Sabre was doing
cons before I was on the scene doing
cons. So I imagine like you know like
logistically the people that c cost the
con the the least the least amount of
money to book it's easier. So um I
imagine maybe Peter was one of those
categories
um for whatever reason. Um
and I think I think him and andrea
Libman have the same agent but don't
quote me on that. Um
>> Mhm.
Uh, so I imagine it was they met through
conventions as well. Um, Peter's Peter's
just a nice guy. Like he'll talk to
people. He's talked to me before. Um,
I'm not really close at w with um with
Peter though. So,
>> okay.
>> I just know of his nature,
>> right? So, correct me if I'm wrong
because like I've been to cons before,
right? And I've been um not part of
panels, but I have friends who are in
the panel spaces where they'll get
panels to cons and stuff. And from what
just a couple of experiences I had with
that, most of the time there's like two
different types of ways you can get a
panel, right? Whether you're like
actually invited by the staff or you
like sign up. Like Colossal I know has
like a sign up thing where it's like if
you want to have a panel at our thing,
you can have a sign up and we'll like
review your thing or whatever. So, um,
was Saber Spark one of those like
invited people to cons or did he like
sign up for panels?
>> Um,
I imagine at first he must have signed
up. I don't know how the the I don't
know the history of the community guest
status at pony conventions, how that
developed to be all honest. By the time
I was there, it was already um
developed. Um, this is kind of a side
tangent, but Bron Khan was known for in
infamously not willing to sponsor any
community guests because they just
assumed that people would go for free
cuz it was the con to go to, which, you
know, is is kind of correct. Um, so
Saber had to um make a point cuz they do
this improv show that I think the clip
the the non-consent clip is from where
it's Yeah, it's called Whose Li um line
is it anyway? But it's Whoo! H O Z um
W H O O V E S Like So like
>> It's a pun. It's a pun.
>> Yeah, it's a pun. It's a dumb pun. So
that is a that's a that's a
crowd-pleaser. Um you know, people know
that that's a thing that happens at some
of these cons is the Saber and Race
comedy show. Um, and that's and then
they invite um some extra people um if
they needed them to pay based on who was
available at the con. So, Saber had to
fight for a couple years to get his
stuff paid for um because he made a
point that the the the freaking um the
who's lime stuff was drawing in a huge
crowd, which it was.
>> Right. Right.
So,
>> so that's that's kind of a side.
>> Yeah. Weren't you like considered a
community g a guest? You said that when
in Courtney's video that you were
considered a community.
>> Rony Con. Brony Con um did not care and
by the time they did care um you know
um
uh that like my whole thing with Brunie
Con happened, which I can go into
details if you want, but um yeah, it was
late in the game when they were even
doing guests cuz they just assumed
people would come anyway. So like we'd
be booked for smaller cons. So and then
that they would have the community guest
tab. So um it would Yeah. So there there
were um there were a bunch of cons back
in the day. There was one point where I
was doing a pony con a month. Um it was
so crazy. But obviously that doesn't
happen anymore.
>> Gee. Well, yeah. I mean I don't know how
popular p like brony conventions are.
>> Yeah.
>> Okay. So, if there was like um if they
were to have like
I'm trying to think because I know that
like on Colossal Con, right? They'll
usually have like obviously features for
a special guest appearance, right? Is
like special guests and they'll they'll
show who they're inviting, right? Did
they have anything like that for like
the Brony conventions? um like a
community guest tab that they were like
displaying who was going to show up
because I know like from what you sent
me, you were able to show a like a
website
um thing where it was like featuring um
I love Kim Possible. I'm pretty sure you
sent that to me.
>> Um yeah. Um yeah, exactly right. They
had they had like a separate page on the
website um for community guest spot
depending on the con, but usually they
did. Um, and like we have we'd write
bios. I think Saber's bio was like he
could lift like like something stupid
like he could lift 500 lb or something
like that. I don't know. Um, so it was
like a joke bio. Um, and then again
depending on the con um I lost all my
con swag um
like six months ago. I won't go into
details about that, but um I don't have
any physical con books yet, but
depending on the con, we were also
listed in the con book too. And then
also depending on the con, um, if the
con was doing a some kind of
advertisement in some way, we'd be like
they would usually want to feature the
community guests as well. So I I can
show you um an example of that if you'd
like,
>> right? And were most of these cons like
did they take place in hotels or was it
like a community center and like the
hotel was like elsewhere?
>> Depending on the size of the con. So,
Brony Con was in the the Baltimore
Convention Center and then everyone
stayed at the hotels around it, but um I
think every other Pony Con was in a
hotel.
>> Okay. Okay. So, like
>> if if they were going to if
>> I was going to ask somebody their
experience at a convention, at least
brony wise, they'd be like, "Yeah, the
con space would be like in a hotel
space." So, they like by the end of
their day where it's like, "Okay, let's
retire from the night." They would just
stay in the same building relatively.
>> Yeah.
um like a a logistical thing is
sometimes they'll have the VAS go stay
at another hotel just so fans don't like
fall into their rooms and stuff like
that, right?
>> But um yeah, that's that's just an
aside.
>> Gotcha. I just wanted to like that
detail thing cuz I don't know how any of
these convention spaces work and I
>> Yeah. What happened was at a convention
so it's like
>> Yeah. Um but yeah, this was in the early
days of the pony fandom. Um I think she
released the cons. cuz I know you were
asking me about the cons um before. Um
so
again, I don't know how much cuz I
wasn't there. I don't know how much of
the status quo was solidified at that
point. But um you know um was Sabersburg
like a big brony guy back then or was he
just like somebody that was like
starting out?
>> Oh, I could explain this. Um so um AC
race spect
was kind of like the big fandom one of
the big fandom things that people look
forward to.
>> Okay.
>> So um so they would get horse famous or
community people notable community
people as guests um to be on Brony's
React and that's kind of how that's one
of the ways you
like. So, because Saber so close, Saber
was automatically in all the bronies
react. And the only reason, fun fact,
the only reason I was in the Rain Rocks
one was because Saber wanted me to be in
there. Um.
>> Okay.
>> Yeah.
>> Okay. I just thought that like outside
of his connections to AC that like that
because the the victim mentioned that
they made a brony video that they liked,
right? So, I thought that maybe he was
like a big brony guy before he became
like the cartoon dude.
>> Um,
>> I don't know what kind of content Saber
was making making before after he became
cartoon dude man. Um, I know he made he
started get his YouTube
um channel by making a documentary
called Ballad of the Brony that he made
for college. Um,
so
>> but you don't think that that would have
made him like at least a notable brony
figure that would have gotten
>> I remember. I remember I remember. Okay.
So, um, again, this was before this is
like still going on, but this was also
established before I was doing stuff.
So, um, every month I think little this
a YouTuber named Little Shy does this.
Yeah, this is just hard because this is
remembering like 10 like 10 years ago.
>> I get it. I get it. Um, no. Every month
they do a top 10 pony videos where
people vote on whatever fan content is
the best, quote unquote. So, uh,
different people have hosted that over
the years and Saber was one of the first
people to host that and so he would get
followers because of that. So, not
really for his personality, but it was
for a thing he was kind of doing at the
time.
>> Oh, okay.
Right. I'm just trying trying to figure
out how ingrained in the community he
was that would get him like
later invited,
>> you know.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Um I think I think to be
honest it was probably his Brony's react
stuff. Um, but I also probably figured
that um in the early days um like when
the first um incident took place um
he w like I think he was doing I think
he was doing a brony podcast or
something like that. So you know I don't
think like he was hot stuff. Um,
>> right. Cuz the most most of what they
will do for like panel things is they'll
invite people who do podcasting cont
like like I mentioned the Colossalon uh
group that I know that does um panels
are a podcast group. So that's how they
not get invited but like they'll pitch
themselves in order to get panels like
we're a podcast group and we do this
this and this. So, I was wondering if
like that's what it was. Like, did he
like it couldn't have possibly been that
one singular ballot of the Brony video
that got him in like
>> ingrained into the Brony fandom. It had
to be other things, I'm guessing.
>> Yeah. Yeah, we're getting really deep
into it. No, he had a podcast called the
Brony B uh breakdown, I think it was
called. So, that's something the victims
mentioned on the Twitter um just for
Okay.
>> for reference. So, I think it's archived
somewhere. But him and his friend Paleo
Stetho, which is um
you know um his his friend guy um they
did it and I this was before I was in
the fandom so I have no experience with
the podcast, but I imagine that was kind
of what they were pitching themselves as
back in the day.
>> Right. Okay. I wouldn't have seen that
because I'm not on Twitter. I spare
myself the insanity. I spare myself the
insanity. I I just want to get more so a
perspective of like it's been a couple
days. I know it's been a stressful week.
Um and I'm sure given
the backlash, right? You've been you've
had some time to kind of reflect on it,
right?
>> Yeah. Um
>> you do understand
why people are upset. Like could you
like in your perspective explain what
what was wrong with the video and where
you know you kind of cuz I know that I
asked you right like I was very harsh
the first time we spoke obviously
because I was upset I was a little upset
but like I do want to make sure 100%
that you do understand
like where it is that you messed up cuz
when I asked you were like yeah I I
understand but like no sit down with me
and explain it to me from you from your
words from your perspective, you
understand where you [\h__\h] up and what
it was that that was the problem with
that video.
>> Okay. Um so, um Okay. So, my state I
made a statement um on Twitter like a
couple of days ago just to let like you
know, let people know that, you know, I
was sorry and everything. And so, one of
the things that's been misconstrued, I
think it was in the cartoon sheet video.
I have I don't have watch the cartoon
sheet video right now that um I said
this is my first time um covering
something like this and what I meant was
this is the first time I'm um exposing
new testimonies um specifically the
Saber one to like the general masses and
dealing with um kind of talking with
victims. Um, the Lily stuff, um, was
mostly my direct experience with Lily
and then Courtney and Brit talking in
there, but Courtney and Brit's stories
were already pretty established at that
point. So, it was just kind of like an
extra thing to to kind of add. So, um,
just just to clarify that one. Um,
>> so what you meant by first time is like
an independent investigation, not like
addressing serious cuz like
>> what I think he was confused by when you
said first time is like, well, you've
talked about serious things in the past.
Right. Right.
>> So like you know how to do it into
quorum, but I guess when you meant first
time, it was more so this is my first
time doing an independent investigation.
>> Right. um which you know like I I guess
I should have clarified that but like
even in relations to the Lily video as
everyone is telling me that um
you know I didn't really put a lot of
jokes in there um obvious like for
obvious reasons I think um I think we
were just kind of in auto mode as far as
just putting the jokes in there and then
part of it was
like me talking about my experience with
Chris directly. So, the assumption
um from my my friend who helped me write
the script kind of thing was was she was
talking we were we're having extensive
conversations about this, but she was
talking about how um oh, she's she's my
mod skink if if you need to know that.
Um she's a mod in my server, but anyway,
um she's also um a CSA survivor as well.
Not that that matters or anything like
oh it it does matter but like just for
the record and she wanted to be
supportive in like a way of you know
tell your story however you want to tell
it and how I cope is with awkward jokes
and stuff like that. So
>> I get that
>> part Yeah. So part of it was me trying
to kind of cope with the lack of
responsibility that everyone was taking
around Chris. Um but I understand in
hindsight that made the
Well, yeah.
I don't want to say watered down, but it
kind of it hurt the credibility of what
I was talking about. And then I think
the worst of it was the piss on the moon
bit. So to be clear, um
um the saber victim did watch the the
full render before it was came out and
and um you know they
>> of the video or that of that segment?
>> The whole video.
>> Okay. the the DA games um people saw
leading up to that, but I like
one of one of them gave feedback on a
render I think with the Saber stuff, but
um the other one didn't, but they were
aware of like the interview and they
asked us to make changes to the
interview and the stuff leading up to
it. So, what they what they were talking
about is um I had a conversation with
one of the DA games victims about the
jokes like early on, but the the way I I
saw it is, you know, this is this is my
story. you know, I kind of want to like
kind of jab at the ridiculous of itness
of it because um this whole process of
doing this video um not only besides it
being a lot of hard work, but it was
very emotionally draining to have to
kind of re like not that it's about me
kind of thing, but like um so I think I
used the jokes in there to kind of cope
with the also the process of making the
video and the process make a video about
this like that it wasn't just
automatically solved. So, um but yeah, I
understand I understand in hindsight and
I think the biggest thing the piss on
the moon bit um which I think we talked
about to before but to reiterate was be
originally a response to Saber just kind
of being um not making the best PR
decisions. Um it was not a
um but yeah having it lead into the the
the victim testimony was a very bad idea
and I feel I feel very stupid but um
yeah so tonally we didn't change any
much of the video when the victim came
forward and that was um a dumb move but
yeah I think I think part of it was just
kind of cope through the process of
making the video and me um
having to hear like these horrible
stories over and over again with uh via
the editing process.
>> So, not that that
um is an excuse, but I guess you can I
hope you can see where I'm coming from
with that.
>> No, I understand. And I've already told
you this, right? Cuz if I also put
little jokes in my videos, right, about
serious [\h__\h] I can't talk [\h__\h] right?
I'm not going to criticize you for your
tone. Like, I I clearly would be a
hypocrite if I did that. I I told you my
problems with the video was mostly how
much of an how disorganized it really
was and how because it was so confusing
to understand what was going on. It was
very
hard to wrap around like what the actual
if there were any serious allegations in
there what they actually really were.
Like I've seen this video twice and I
still am a little confused of what what
the hell DA Games even did, you know?
Like
>> No, that's fair. That's fair. No, I mean
that's why I'm even talking
like we're we're mostly talking about
stuff related to the saber victim
because I want to make sure that like
you know the correct information is out
there
you know first before people start kind
of assuming things. Um, so you know, I'm
not here to to, you know, dismiss myself
from the video. Like I I got to think
about that more to Well, I got to think
about how to deal with that more, but
that's a that's a that's an aside thing.
Um but yeah, so I think so yeah, it was
originally with Chris and then we
realized um and then it was the emails
with DA Games where they um clearly were
not willing to do um they were clearly
not willing to do anything because Chris
and Will are are close friends. Um, so I
I knew I knew going in he wasn't getting
fired, but I I was like, "Hey, I felt
like it was fair to be like, "Hey, we're
going to release report about Chris. Um,
do you guys want to do anything before
we we do that?" Um, and um they Yeah. So
that was what you read um in the video
is like basically we're content to not
do anything. And I'm like, uh, and then
eventually they started using British
law to try to threaten me. And, uh, when
I looked up British law, um, it it
didn't it didn't add up. So, she, um, I
believe Lori, the the the HR person at
DA Games, uses a lot like is a Kiwi
farmer person and uses a lot of scary
language when victims want to come out.
Like, she's used similar tactics with
the other victims.
um before and even this is not public
information but um it will be
eventually. Um they hired a law firm to
send me a cease and desist
>> um in in Britain but I I know what a
cease and desist is and um they were
kind of really sloppy as far as
presentation about it. Um and you can't
cease and desist something that isn't
existing in the first or hasn't existed
in the first place anyway. So, um, but
but yeah, they were, um, it was what
Will needs to do is own up to this [\h__\h]
and say how he's going to be better and
say how he's going to protect the kids
in his community or not have
um, and he sounds like he's from what
the victims have described um, in the
interview, he sounds very mentally ill.
I have no relation with Will, so I I
don't, you know, I assume they're
correct. Um, and he needs to step away,
but it seems like everyone is enabling
him because they are supported
financially on his business.
>> Um, and that kind of creates like a
whole
pattern of like enabling, I guess, with
within with within everything. So, um,
you know, I think Will is really
embarrassed. Well, I don't know. I don't
know Will that well, but Will might be
just kind of
doesn't want to harm the company's
reputation by admitting to allegations
that are that are documented and logged.
>> Um, but I don't think that's really
working anymore. Um,
>> sure. for the DA stuff. As far as I'm
like, as I've come to understand it,
there's like a paper trail, right?
There's like there's, you know, stuff
from their Discord server, screenshots
and all that.
>> I can give you um I can give you the
document if you'd like. But yeah, that's
>> I think I have access to it. Um cuz it
was I think it was posted in one of the
servers I was in cuz I was asking about
like where the mega thread of the
information was cuz I think you provided
it in your description, but then the
video got
>> the video went down. Yeah, that's that's
fair.
>> And I went and grabbed that before, but
somebody grabbed it for me, I think.
>> Yeah. And then um I have a personal
antidote from that. So, um the other
thing too that I wanted to add um is the
reason we even had a um the beginning
section where we were going over the
Reddit comment. So, um, for those who
are unaware, um, there was something
similar that happened in 2016 and, um,
basically four friends, two that had
like one that had a positive experience
working for me, one one who had a
neutral one, um, one who was fired, and
then one who had a negative one, but
never voiced it to me directly. Um, so I
released my anim my animation called A
Different Perspective, which is like an
independent story in the My Little Pony
universe. Um, and the flaw with that is
I developed
like so at the time I was like I was so
confused because I was like, who hates
me enough to target me? There was like a
um I don't know if you're familiar with
the situation so like stop me if you've
heard it before. Um, but there was an A
on Twitter where they were like doxing
me and um, you know,
>> posting.
>> Is this in regards to like the the
Reddit thing that you had in your video
that you were responding to? Is this
what this about?
>> Yeah. So, um,
>> so um, yeah, to backtrack a little bit
because I got a little out of order. So
the the problem with so I did um
Different Perspective
um which is a a pony story but it
featured my OC in the narrative of My
Little Pony and I realized that that
wasn't the move because people don't
can't mis reassociate the OC with like
canon stuff and if I was going to tell
that story um I should have just made an
OC instead of just using my pony avatar.
Um but um people were were dunking on it
which they're they're fair to dunk you
know criticism is fine and that's kind
of how those four started talking. So I
developed um so the like the whole
fandom turned on me based on what was um
coming out um or not coming out but what
was being described and um so it was it
was very devastating for me as like
serving like really loving the fandom
and and loving my presence and and stuff
like that. So I developed pretty bad
PTSD from it um among other things. But
I was afraid that that even though I've
addressed it before, I was afraid that
bias would affect the rest of the video.
So obviously, as we previously
discussed, that had the opposite effect
because most people or a lot of people
were coming in not knowing me, and it
looks like I was I was pissy about one
Reddit comment, and I had to do a whole
like half hour section about one Reddit
comment, but that was the context. And
to further clarify um going back to
Will. So um it uh uh so the main person
around like on the Twitter was named
Michael Bogs. He he he that's how he
goes. So he works for Vyop now which
bothers me but that's besides the point.
Um
so and he was the one who was fired from
the team um because he lied about his
age at the time. Um, so he the basically
the the confrontation with Bogs um that
that is um that eventually got him to
admit um to like just straight up
harassing me um even though he was
warned not to do so. Um was to was to
give to Will as proof that like hey this
this guy has done something seriously
wrong. I think like we I think he needs
to be let go.
>> Mhm.
>> So So that was even the first and only
time I talked to Will was during that
situation. He was he said he was going
to try to help, but I imagine things
kind of fell off the banner after Chris
started talking negatively about me. But
regardless, in the public statement, I
think I talked about a little bit on the
video, but to be clear, the public
statement that Will made about the
firing of of Bogs did not mention
any of the shenanigans he was up to and
called him a great person. So, you know,
that just goes to say how controversy
avoid Will wants to be. like he doesn't
want anyone to have a like he like they
get mad like you heard the interview but
they get mad if people draw fan art you
know it's it's ridiculous.
>> Okay so the whole reason why you even
addressed that entire Reddit thing and
even like responded to it was because it
was somewhat in connection with this
other person that used to work at DA
Games. Is that what you're saying? Um,
no. I'm saying, um, I was afraid people
who had not watched me in a long time
would just remember the controversy
without watching the video that kind of
breaks down the controversy and they'd
say, "Oh, KP's icky. I'm not going to
believe her and I'm not going to believe
these other victims." So it was trying
kind of
>> so you
>> you were trying to clear up yourself
before you were like here are some of
the victims that are coming forth with
their allegations because you through
>> through proxy they wouldn't believe it
because it's coming from you.
>> Yes.
>> Okay. I suppose I understand it from
that perspective even though I still
don't think that was quite necessary in
that video. But I get why I see why that
was included now cuz I was very confused
why that was ever included. But you do
see that now that we've formed a new
problem which is that it's not that
people won't believe these victims
because it's coming from you. It's that
they won't believe the victims because
the video by just by itself is doesn't
make it clear what they're accusing
anyone of.
>> Right. So, that's kind of a new thing.
>> I mean, again, that's that's why I'm
here to clear up misinformation that I
[\h__\h] up. Um because yeah, I think we
needed like definitely needed more third
party. Um
>> Oh, yeah. You you agree that you were a
bit too ingrained in this to be a
unbiased party to address this, right?
You get that. I mean, yeah. I I don't
want to use this wording because like I
don't see it like this way like Chris
did something icky, but you know, like
at the end of the day, whatever. But
like, you know, DA Games has hurt me too
because of this. So, like that's also a
bias that I didn't really realize.
>> And also, like the first conversation we
had together, you mentioned there was
kind of a catharsis to making that
video. Like in what way?
um that I mean that was the reason for
my tone to to clarify um that I was
finally so I was finally getting this
out there. I could finally tell the
story my way with all the me in there um
and that these people were going to be
held accountable for their um
like their behavior finally or so I
thought. So like um
you know it was still very it was still
hard to talk about in general just
because of how upsetting it was for me.
But um yeah that was kind of like you
know the idea was like like even even
after everything that's happened there's
still like a little part of me that's
just glad that the video is done with
just because it was so stressful to to
be doing a video like that for for
everyone. So,
>> sure. Like for me, I've explained this
to a couple people that asked me about
this because they've recognized my voice
in it and they're like, "What's your
opinion on this?" Like I said, I always
assumed that this was going to be like
DA games bad, Saber Spark a hypocrite,
that kind of thing. But as we're more so
discussing it, it's for me, I How do I
word this? The words were there and then
they left me, unfortunately. No, I got
it.
They're come and go. Um,
as I'm more so talking to you about like
the intentions and how this kind of came
about, I for one, I think we can both
agree at this point that you were way
too ingrained with all of these people
that there that bias was going to always
inherently be there because of like
personal things that you had that was a
like that was like, oh, I used to be
friends with them and now I'm not
because of a falling out. So therefore,
the biases would have been very
apparent. But also, here's the thing,
right? Cuz I when I explain this to
people, I'm like, she's going to make a
video about this guy she once worked
with who sexually harassed her. And I
had no problem being a part of a video
where you're telling that story, right?
I'll be like, you know what? Girls
support girls. This girl was sexually
harassed.
And I think what Chris did, considering
I heard the the whole confession call, I
think it's shitty. Do I agree that you
should have not recorded that without
his permission? No, I don't agree with
that. But I get why you did it because
of a safety concern. And not that it's
still not shitty, but like I you get
what I mean? Like this girl was
harassed. She's going to tell her story
about this ex-coworker that is
has harassed her and she's tried to
alert people to this thing that he did
and they just ignored her and called her
a liar even. And if that whole this
whole video was just about you and like
you sharing that experience, I don't
think anyone would have had an issue
with the video. Would it have still been
a little confusing? Maybe. But like at
the very least, it'd be like you telling
your story. When you included all the
other victims, it felt like it was more
so like a validation of why you hated
all these people instead of just
focusing on your personal grief. You
know what I mean?
>> Yeah. Well, I mean, like like I said at
like somewhere in this call, we've been
talking for a while. Um that Yeah. um is
the reason I didn't talk about my saber
experiences before that cuz I is is
because I didn't think it was fair and I
felt like this incident kind of crossed
the line um in that. But I think the I
think we needed third party feedback
anyway because as being so close to the
case I misassumed people had information
that they did not have. So that was also
a big problem with the video. Well, and
also like you said that the tonal issues
was more for for your benefit to or for
you to cope and everything. That's
totally fine. Like I said, tone's not
obviously the strong suit. I'd be a
hypocrite if I said anything. But if it
were your story told that way because it
makes you feel better, that's totally
understandable. But when you include
other people's testimonies, you have to
at least adhere the tone to them as
well. Because how they want to tell
their stories may not be the same way
how you would want to tell your story.
How you want to tell it is through the
jokes. and that's totally fine cuz
that's your thing. But when it comes to
the other people involved,
they're kind of invalidated um with
their stories cuz they're not telling it
in a way that they want to tell it just
based on the fact that it's mostly
dominated by the tone you want to take.
You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah.
Well, like like like we've already
talked about, I've never done uh a video
like this before because the Lily video
was pretty straightforward. it was my
experiences and then we'll we did we did
some interviews. So, I kind of thought
this was like kind of similar but kind
of different. Um where it was like me
talking about experiences and then we'll
have some victim interviews at the the
end just to kind of you know reiterate
some of these concerns. So, uh so yeah.
Um I don't Yeah, I mean yeah, I've been
I I've been it's been reeled into my
head that's wrong with this video. So, I
get it,
>> right? I'm not here to remind you
anymore. I'm sure you're very aware, but
um just so you know, just to kind of
wrap this up because we've been talking
for a while. I'm sure you have things to
do. Um in future reference, do you plan
on doing anything similar to this ever
again or?
>> Um
I don't know. Like right now I'm saying
no just because like you know the these
are my exact uh triggers that um have
been activated and it has been um hard
and I've had to I've had to to eat a lot
of edible well not a lot but like I've
had to do eat a lot of edibles to get
through this week and it's I it's nice
to be reminded that I have so many
friends that are saying hey I saw the
video are you okay? So, um, for the
record, uh, Kayla, another person that
was in the video, um, also had that
tone. I was like, "Oh, thank God.
Someone's not going to treat me like a
[\h__\h] monster who did this on, um,
purpose."
>> Well, I
It's hard, you know, cuz I don't know
anything about you at all, right? I've
only had a couple of conversations with
you. I want to assume that what you're
doing is the right thing, but I just
think that you were a little too driven
by the fact that you were so
interconnected with everyone to see it
from a third party perspective.
>> That's the thing. Like I feel like this
definitely if you wanted your story to
be told by just you and your personal
experiences, then that would make more
sense, right? But I just feel like you
were way too into this. like you knew
too many of these people and you were
already kind of upset with a lot of them
anyways that like when you get all these
other stories about oh here's other
examples of how they're bad and it's not
just like your personal grudge you can
be like oh here's more of a
justification kind of thing. So, I just
think that you definitely should have
removed yourself when you realized that
there was way too much of a bias on your
end to ever cover this cuz it was never
because of how personal personally
invested in how you knew these people,
especially since one of them was your
employer. There was no way in hell this
was going to come across as anything but
incredibly biased.
>> Right. Right. Well, and then you have to
remember originally it was just going to
be me and I added the victims. like I
felt I mean at the time I felt like in
good faith to get their stories out too
since I'm here like since I'm here
anyway kind of thing but you know
>> sure
>> um hindsight is hindsight. Yeah, of
course. Um, I would advise, you know,
probably not to try to do something like
this again or if you are, let's just
hypothetical somebody asks you to cover
something like this again. Please just
if you have a bias that you can ignore,
then remove yourself. You know, that'd
be probably the best thing cuz the
biggest thing for me that really
affected this video was just now knowing
like how interconnected you were with
Saber. It was like, "Oh, dude, I don't
think that this was ever going to come
across as anything but like a personal
grievance."
>> And I get that that wasn't your intent,
but it's just from the perspective of
you used to know all these people fairly
well, friendly, and then it had there
was the falling out between all of them,
and now this video comes out the way it
was very condescending that it's like,
"Oh, okay." Like, you get what I'm
saying? I I think you've seen it. Yeah.
>> Yeah. though. I mean,
yeah. Um, the cartoony cartoony video is
not helping. Like, I understand people
are upset and they have a right to be
upset, but like adding a laugh track. I
think he added a laugh track underneath
some of the the um the clips that he
used to present the video. And less
people have seen the actual video
they
>> Oh, sorry. You recover.
>> Um, okay. Okay, let me know if I need to
repeat anything.
>> Well, just the whole your whole opinion
on the cartoon she thing.
>> Oh, okay. So, yeah, I don't have the
heart to watch the cartoon video um
right now. Um if not ever. Um I get why
people are upset like valid criticism of
the video is fine. I've said the same
thing in my fan server like you know
just like don't start um doing stuff.
But um something I know that happened is
he showed clips of the video with laugh
tracks under. And just for the record,
the video does not have the laugh
tracks. He added the laugh tracks. And
because there's so much of a divide
between people who actually saw the
video and people who are watching the
Cartoon video, they're taking that at
face value. Um
>> Oh,
>> yeah.
>> I think I think the point you cuz I've
seen it. The point he was trying to make
with that whole thing was that it felt
like you were cuz you're a YouTuber,
right? Our our whole point in being
content creators is to try and
entertain, right? But the point that he
was trying to get at is is that this is
not a situation where it's about where
we need to entertain our audience with
jokes. We need to take it a little more
seriously. And so the whole point of it
was that you you were incapable of
turning off the YouTuber funny man mode
when talking about serious allegations.
That was kind of why he went over like
the clips where you included like memes
and whatever and all that stuff. Um, it
most of it was like addressing the tone
of it is what his whole thing was in
including all of that and showing
examples. I don't know if he should have
added that laugh trap. Maybe that did
confuse some people, but like
>> I I get the point that they were trying
to make and they probably could have
made it without having to include that
just as is. Just show the clip as is.
But no, I get what you're saying.
>> And then the other thing that's
happening is people are
um saying things that can be
screenshotted. Um and like things that
are meant to be fair critique are like
because they're not worded 100%, you
know, concrete as far as like
objectivity um is kind of increasing in
indirectly increasing the harassment.
So, um,
uh, yeah. So, I think like, you know, I
don't I don't know cartoon at all. This
is the first time I'm hearing about him,
frankly, is is through this experience.
But like, um, I wish he reach reached
out to me and like, you know, then like,
hey, you [\h__\h] up, but like, you know,
like, did do the victims still want a
platform? And like something like that.
But, you know,
>> cuz he said in his video that like the
the victim testimonies that you feature
could very well have like he didn't
question the validity of the victims.
He's like these could very well be very
serious accusations that have some
weight to it. But because again, I think
you could also like argue this as well
because it's become so much of an issue
the tone of it and like how it's
structured. you can't really tell if
there is any sort of weight to any of it
just because so many people are so
focused on like just the tone of it and
how it was like put together
>> which I know that that's your problem as
well is that people are
>> too much focused on that instead of like
hearing what the stories that are in it
but like you have you do understand why
people would be way more focused in on
like the actual because it's a two-hour
video like I mean there's quite a bit to
talk about you know but the dominating
thing in within in that two hours is
just how none of it made any goddamn
sense.
>> But
um yeah, I I did just want to make sure
cuz I I am I hope you're okay with this.
I was going to let people kind of hear
this call because they want to hear your
perspective on it and they want to at
least include it in their coverage so
that you know at least your your side of
it is kind of out there. I I hope that
you're okay with me sharing that at the
very least, right? Um, yeah. I think,
um, my only my only concern right now is
like I still want time to think about
how to address it publicly on my own.
So, I don't want this to be the defining
thing, but like with other creators and
stuff, that's fine. And then maybe you
can ask me later and like I can I'll
change my mind. So, I'm not really
worried about anything in this or like
>> Yeah. I'm just letting you know very
much like this is going to end up
probably in other people's coverage just
so you aware.
>> Okay. And there is one more thing I
think that should be stated and I I only
want to ask this. I understand you and
Courtney are friends. I am not asking
this for you to turn on them, but I am
asking this because their behavior very
publicly with how intergrained they are
in this video as well as their um Gabe
coverage is kind of interconnected into
all of this. Um there's people who are
very
up peeved, let's say, about their
behavior in the live chat because this
was something that was also addressed in
Cartoon Cheese's video um that they've
been kind of going on a tirade um about
how people are kind of reacting to it
and especially with this um there was a
CSA survivor that was very critical and
they were very rude to them in live
chat. Can you just kind of not that you
have to answer on their behalf that this
is their behavior, not yours, but
considering that you featured them in
that video and this is their behavior
that reflects not on your you and your
character or your video just like cuz
they're featured in it, right? So, could
you
>> at least in let whoever know that like
at least the things that are going on
with Courtney like how you feel about
that personally,
>> right?
>> You don't have to turn on her. Just, you
know, give an honest opinion. turned her
into the internet police. No. Um, I I
told her at the time that like I get
that she was trying to help me with the
like defend the video um like in
general, but um you know I told her like
um that I was kind of frustrated with
things and I went to found and found the
the person that was rude she was rude to
on um uh in the live stream and I
apologize and I tried to get Courtney to
apologize. ologize, but Courtney did not
want to apologize. Courtney is um
Courtney has opinions. So, um but yeah,
two things to factor uh with Courtney um
like right now in general. Um again, not
that this is an excuse, but just maybe
like um something to consider. Um so,
yeah. So, a um they they are going
through a hard time right now because
they're it's a death anniversary or it
was on Monday. Um, so their their
mother-in-law or their boyfriend's uh
mother basically at 60 bas like died of
a stroke and dropped dead and they had
to like clean up the the body fluids and
stuff like that as well. So, um I
imagine that is stressful and upsetting.
So, I don't I don't you know, but she's
she's just stubborn right now, I guess.
So, I'm hoping that
um
like I understand her her point of view,
but like her point of view
probably doesn't define it her uh it for
everyone else, you know? And maybe for
Courtney, the whole the perspective on
it is I feature in a video where we're
bringing victim stories to life,
therefore it's a good thing. And anyone
critical of it is not believing in
victims, therefore bad. You know, like
the black and white like two sides
thing. But it's not that it's impossible
to view things in grays. It's more so
just like a
very much a distinguishing of like good
versus evil kind of thing. You know what
I mean? And
>> Right. Right.
>> I don't see that as an excuse for her
behavior, but I do understand it. Right.
I do. I still think she should
apologize. Yeah. But like I I feel like
people are very much like there's no
excuse for this behavior, but they won't
end up listening to an explanation of
behavior. like they'll see an
explanation of behavior as an excuse.
I'm not making any excuses. I still
think it's shitty, but I do also
acknowledge that mental health is a
thing. Um, yeah. So, you know, I, you
know, I've asked her, like I've asked
her to apologize. She doesn't want to
like, so I I get it. like like I I
assume the the girl who was talking. So
the problem for people who are not aware
is that she worded things like as a CSA
survivor and then I think opinion about
the video and Courtney saw that wording
problematic because she felt like she
was using that to justify her opinions
on the video,
>> right? Um, yeah. So, you know, I'm sure
she meant she she meant well, at least
from my perspective, but um, you know, I
I see why it like, for lack of a better
word, upset Courtney. Um,
but oh, and then for the record, too,
I'm not friends with Christian. Like,
please stop asking me. Just in case
anyone was aware, Christian is not in
the chat.
So, I had um I had some like some
Twitter interactions with them before
the mother incident. I was not aware of
Christian as a concept before that. I
was just being like I usually respond to
people on Twitter if they're if they're
nice or whatever. So, um you know, like
you know, you can check like my history
to see all that. So, um Chris Chan has
um been to Brony Con before, I think
twice, and he's or sorry, they have um
given me um fan art directly in person
before. Um so, that's that's weird to
think about. Um and then um once
>> like they tried to rim with me in a con
hotel right before the out. Yeah. And I
was like, "No, thanks." Like, I was
asking for mutuals um to share a room
for this con that was coming up and
Chris thought that they were a mutual
and and offered to share the room. And I
was like, "Uh,
>> dude, if I were ever approached by
Christian to bunk with them at any place
ever, I think I would die. I don't I
don't think I'd be able to handle that
the fact that I exist in that same
reality where Christian knows of my
existence,
>> right? But you can't really like
understand Christian until like you
understand Christian. So I was just like
they're a little weird but it's a brony
convention. Everyone's a little weird.
Like whatever.
>> I'll be nice. Like um and then like
after the Mother stuff came out um you
know that's no bueno. Um
>> very much no bueno.
>> Yeah. So I've tried to decrease my
interactions with them but they are
actively a fan. So, um they are now
kicked from the chat and they were also
um like a year or two ago or maybe even
longer for like before that. Uh we found
them in the fan server that they've been
kicked out of for like a very long time.
So, um
yeah. Uh not a not a fan. Um, no, they
are a thing that exists on the internet,
but you know, and they like the content,
but that doesn't mean I want to be
friends with them.
>> Fair enough. I wouldn't want to be
friends with them either,
but I think that's that's good. Um, I'm
going to probably head out and, you
know, have this on recording. We've gone
about this for another two hours. I
don't know why this keeps happening,
but thank you for at least, you know,
sitting down and explaining that for me.
I I do appreciate it cuz that
>> Yeah. Well, as you can imagine, I feel
horrible and I just kind of want the
victims to to get their spotlight. So, I
haven't decided how or if I'm going to
like to do that, but I just want to like
do what I can right now that is like for
people that don't yell at me. So, thanks
thanks for being thanks for not yelling
at me. You know,
>> I get it. Um,
>> but um
>> you know it
>> in terms of like cuz I want to make sure
that like you have some public thing out
there. Are you going to address this
whole thing publicly in a video format
or like in a a statement thing or what?
>> Um, I haven't decided. Um, as we've been
talking, the Saber victim has been um
DMing me stuff, so I haven't had a
chance. But I think we t talked about
this earlier where um they were ill and
in the hospital, but I wanted to touch
base with them before I made a decision.
>> Um
>> so,
>> all right. I was just making sure cuz if
you are going to I want that to come out
first before we
>> you know cuz like the the whole idea is
like talk about like try to bring more
clarity about the the
uh
>> the train wreck. Yeah.
>> Yeah. The train wreck. Like address your
video as the train wreck it is, but also
like look into the allegations you're
actually making and like be like, "Let's
have an actual conversation about it."
Like,
>> right?
>> Basically, the video will be how not to
address allegations. I assume cuz I'm
not making it somebody else. But like, I
assume that's what it's probably going
to be.
Yeah. Um I mean, yeah. at that po at
this point like I just want people to
focus on the victim stories and like you
know I know I know like this is what I
meant on the the the tweet that I had of
just like I know donkey on me is fun
guys like so that wasn't meant to
distract that was just kind of like
acknowledging that um yeah so um but I
like a video about the victims or even
including the victims I feel like is
going to be a lot more lot more
beneficial than just like okay made made
some bad choices. Woo! Woo. So, um, you
know,
>> I guess I should I guess I should ask
this if we are going to like speak to
this person, right? Like just to see
their perspective. You you said that
like I think you mentioned while we were
talking that there's not a whole lot of
evidence. Is there not very much like a
paper trail in regards to all of this
that's going on? Like do they
>> Well,
the problem is that it this a lot like
it was 2012. So this happened through
Skype and Skype for those who aren't
aware is getting deleted soon. So um you
know there I think all the records like
uh they've checked and they're not
there. So unless there's some way to
like hack a Skype thing to get chat
history which you know is above my pay
grade someone else can help them with
that. They're the victim's on Twitter if
you know how to do that. Um, so there
are hypothetical Skype vlogs.
>> Um, but they are in the void of the
internet.
>> Okay. Well, you do understand that like
not you know like I've I said even in my
own video like screenshots are great.
Screenshots are almost like required.
That's like the best thing. But like if
they don't have that and the most that
they have is like like you said like con
whispers from 2015 three people coming
forward to like like come forward for by
their behalf to verify or whatever.
>> It's going to be a very it's going to be
very very dangerous to try to like bring
that to your channel in any way that's
like I believe this person. Not that
they I don't, but like it's one of those
things where like if we're going to put
your um like even with you like bringing
this forth in the video you made, you
were really putting your reputation on
the line. Like let's say that that video
wasn't bad. Let's say it was perfectly
handled. Like the tone was fine. It was
like perfectly structured.
>> Dream.
>> Yeah, we can dream. But like it's the
case scenario where it's like because
there's really no paper trail of any of
this, you're really kind of,
>> you know, putting it up to like a trust
me bro kind of thing. And that's really
dangerous for your reputation, for
anyone's reputation, right? And that's
not me saying I don't want to believe
this person cuz nine times out of 10
it's very it's very much a thing where
it's like safer to believe them than
not. But because of like past things
that's happened on the internet,
especially with the lack of evidence,
you're what you're asking, at least when
you're asking people, hey, do you want
to cover this? It's very hard to ask
them that because they have to put their
reputation on the line,
right? No, I I I I get that. I mean that
is why we had the
um I think um
well I don't remember what it was called
but one of the disclaimers basically
said like hey we need this to be true
you know we're not doing this
faciciously like again that's one of the
reasons that's also one of the reasons
it the testimony came on Twitter first
is to separate me from the testimony so
people aren't going to be like thank god
right so people aren't going to think
like oh it came from a KP video KP's
just mad at Saber like she made this up
so um
>> you know um I did one thing right I
guess but um
>> I mean I suppose like I guess that's why
people are talking about the Saber Spark
allegations now is because it it came
out on Twitter right but and because
your video was but again like Brony Fan
don't advertise in that tweet that this
testimony would be paired with a video
coming out that was yours like you you
do understand that like phrasing it that
way meant that you guys were kind of
setting it up again like you said
earlier to blindside him. Like either
way, even though you say that like
people are talking about this victim's
testimonies now because it's not
associated with me through this brony
fando thing, it still kind of is cuz you
kind of used it as like a promotional
tacticish.
>> Yeah, I guess you can I guess you can
see it,
>> right? But but yeah um that
you know yeah I just like right now I'm
just like I don't want to make anything.
I want to sit on my butt and draw Kim
Possible art and and and call it a day.
So um
>> you know um I'm trying not to rush
things like as as I stated before. Um
>> yeah and like I I think I've said this
in a couple videos too that like a time
frame of like when you should respond if
you plan to. I I honestly don't don't
think it matters either way if you do or
you don't. But like it's one of those
things where it's like the time frame of
how long it takes you to respond doesn't
really matter for me all that much
because that means that you're at least
taking your time with it. It's more so
just like I like I already told you in a
previous call like really do consider
what everyone's saying because I think a
lot of it does have a lot of validity
and especially with how interconnected
you were in all of this. It was going to
be very hard for you to sell this as
like not a personal grudge kind of
thing. I get that that was not probably
your intention, but like the bias will
always be there based on like,
>> you know, how interconnected you were
with all of this. So,
>> but I I think that was a good
conversation. I I do hope that things go
better for you. I mean,
>> you know, I I do hope that you take this
as a learning opportunity, of course. Um
>> Um Yeah. Well, again, like to tie it
back to the testimony, that's why we're
taking our time with it. I'm not like
trying to rush something out just for
the sake of appeasing the public. So,
right now, I'm leaning towards like just
audio only, just Q&A about the video
similar to this, but I haven't decided
yet and going to talk to the saber
victim before I I really do anything
right now. So,
>> and also just take some time offline and
like cuz I get that like the
overwhelming thing of like
>> the internet bantering on you. It's
maybe hard to really sit down and
reassess like where it went wrong based
on like the comments of angry commenters
or whatever the [\h__\h] that kind of thing.
Like it's like, "Yeah, feedback's great,
but when it's all like just this u
[\h__\h]
>> internet slang dog pile." Not dog pile.
I don't You get what how the internet
talks very harshly and just like makes
the whole thing like a big like,
you know,
>> you know, spectacle thing. Like a
spectacle thing. So to remove yourself
from the spectrum and be like, "Okay,
this is where I [\h__\h] up and kind of
like, you know, branching it out to
this, this, and this." You know, make a
ven diagram. I don't [\h__\h] know. just,
>> you know, have some introspective that
does listen to parts of the public, but
also just like, you know, based on your
own personal character, did that make
sense for you to make those moves? And
if it doesn't, if it's something that
you would look upon and be like, wait,
why would I do that? I would never do
that. Then it's like one of those things
like a
>> Yeah, I mean that's kind of the the
generalized problem right now anyway is
because people don't really know me well
enough and just assume that my
intentions are bad cuz like why why else
would like you know I talk about it in a
happy tone kind of thing like for
example. Um, so you know, I I get it.
Like,
>> well, I think to to
>> make a a co coherent thing, like if
we're going to both agree on something,
like you do know you [\h__\h] up, but do
did you [\h__\h] up because it was
malicious? Um, or did you [\h__\h] up
because you were just really
irresponsible and reckless?
>> Um,
mostly I I would I would think the
second one. Um, but you know, you know,
like again, if you know, like I'm a
public figure. You're allowed to believe
what you want. Just
>> don't don't harass me, please.
>> Sure. Yeah, I get it. Yeah. I I just
want to get like a fair like assessment
from everyone that's based off of what
you have to say and based off of what
everyone else has to say cuz it's it's
one thing to make assumptions, right?
And people will have their opinions.
People can assume whatever they want
because we're public people that put
that out there on the internet. But, you
know, I like at least having that
conversation because then I can approach
it from a perspective of this is what
they've told me and this is how they
assess it. Right. So, it's like, you
know,
>> Right. Right. I I get that.