[Music]
So I am here with Bonk uh the one of the
halves of the Brony Fan don't um Twitter
account and Blue Sky account. Is there
any other accounts that run under Brony
Fan don't? Is it just the Twitter and
Blue Sky? Yeah, it's just the the
Twitter and Blue Sky and um and also
it's just me on the accounts now.
>> It's just you.
>> Yeah.
>> Okay.
>> It used to be for um a few months there.
Sophie also had access. Um it it is
currently just me.
>> Is there any reason why she's no longer
running it currently or
>> I realize now that people can interpret
that in many different ways. There's no
bad blood and I didn't like hack my way
back in.
Sorry, I'm already messing up. I didn't
want to go into this because I didn't
want people because people
>> tend to take this as Sophie shouldn't
have done this and they they like to
give their strong opinions on that. But
I was given the account back. Um, and I
whatever people's take on that is, it I
don't think Sophie is doing something
worth uh demonizing her over.
>> Right. Right. It's just it I I'll
interpret it that as more of a it's just
it's less confusing, I think, for an
audience if it was just one person
rather than the two of you, you know,
like adding your correspondence to the
account kind of thing.
>> Yeah. And also, you know, Sophie
really just wanted to focus on the Black
Griffin situation. Um, neither one of us
really wanted to cover the other one
because we weren't in a great place to
balance multiple things. And then we
kind of got roped into that anyways and
it
>> right
>> it escalated.
>> Yeah. And as we go along, I have
questions that'll we can touch on that
in more detail. But I guess I suppose if
we're already here and we're introducing
you as the owner of the account, I
should ask my first question.
>> Um, how was the Brony Fan account
created and what was it originally used
for? Cuz I know that it's been around
for like a while.
>> So, originally it was a role playinging
account um, back years and years ago.
Mhm.
>> Um, I came into the Brony fandom in
summer of 2011.
Um, I don't remember exactly what age. I
think it was maybe 13. Um, I I I'm
currently 28. My birthday's in December,
so go back to summer 2011 if anyone
wants to do the math and you could piece
together. But um I got into the show uh
after seeing a lot of people on the
internet talking about it. And then I
stumbled across uh other people on
Twitter doing uh Twitter ponies, which
is a whole role playinging community
where people would pick a character,
either an OC or a cannon character, and
play as them. It was a it was a safer
work role playinging scene. Um, however,
I was uh young and dumb and uh when as I
was playing Screw Ball, who who is a
character that um it was in the
background, she's she was just a she was
like a gag character. Whenever this
chaotic character discord came in, she
would kind of like spawn in as this she
it was seemingly a an uh she was part of
his
power. I I don't want to explain the the
continuity of the show. It doesn't
matter,
>> but I'm just trying to explain the
account.
>> Um
>> basically they're paired together often
kind of thing.
>> Yeah. So, she's this wacky character is
what I'm trying to get at. Um,
so I was just playing her as this
uh loner but upbeat loner that wants to
go around town and make friends. And
then um I uh got into some situations
early on where I was very happy whenever
anyone would interact with me and when a
account that didn't follow any of the
the even rules of the format which was
usually you'd have MLP character name.
>> This person went by like gamer brony
4677 whatever. I don't I don't remember
the numbers, but it it was very
obviously not
uh someone who was um following
everything
>> and they wanted to be like the boyfriend
of Screw Ball and I was just happy to
interact with someone. So, I kind of
went along with it and it went to places
that Claire's later screenshotted um as
like I put the message like, "Oh, uh cuz
they they were role playing like, "Oh,
is this even okay?" Like you're you're a
younger character. Uh you know, in in
charact I'm I'm sorry. I'm bad at this.
>> It's fine. I mean, I am, too. So, we're
equally on the same footing of like
being bad at things.
>> All right. Perfect. Um
I so I responded and in that screenshot
that people have seen, oh age is just a
number. Uh, but it's important to have
the context that is often left out that
I was barely a teenager and I don't and
I was also playing a character that I
wouldn't like I don't agree with the
character and I wouldn't do that today.
Um, I think the entire like interactions
with this random OC being the boyfriend
of this uh character is kind of just
cringe in general and I regret that.
But, you know, I I'm
It's been more than uh 14 years since
then,
>> right?
>> Uh
>> I mean, was Screwball ever depicted as
like a younger character? Was that the
problem or
>> Yes and no. In the show, it's not
explicit. Uh, but in the fandom, she was
given like this persona of being like a
a younger character, like the young
daughter of Discord, which is also not
entirely canon. Like, it's implied that
she's she's only ever there when he's
doing wacky shenanigans. So, the
implication is that maybe she's
part of what he does. um which would
lead the fandom to make her the daughter
of Discord. So um I did play her as a
younger character, but it was never
meant to be in any way sexual. I ju I
but that doesn't mean that it didn't
happen because I want I like the
attention that I was getting at the time
and I I went along with things that I
from all aspects I regret not just
because of uh what was said but because
it was just kind of cringe in general.
>> Yeah. And I mean, you know how the brony
fandom is, right? Like
when it comes to I do the morality of
that particularly, they kind they don't
really bat an eye at it. They're like,
"Well, this is fandom [\h__\h] This is just
what people do kind of thing." Like the
the Brony fandom was very non from what
I've come to understand talking to other
bronies, it was very much like
non-drama. Like they're very anti-drama.
So if anything were to stir up any
problems or like let's just pretend that
that's not there kind of thing.
>> So like I tolerate was a slogan that
people would throw around a lot and I
think it actually led to people putting
up with things and not wanting to be
angry at people over very serious
things.
>> True. I mean, that could all get like
lumped in, right? It's just like, oh,
this sounds very petty, but when
everything sounds petty, some serious
[\h__\h] can like seep through the the
cracks essentially.
>> Yeah.
>> All right. So yeah, because that was one
of the things that like I saw that I was
just like that's very interesting. But I
I tried to give you the benefit of the
doubt on that because I'm just like I
don't know how old he is and I don't
know how old he was when the these
screenshots were taken kind of thing.
But um
>> yeah, I was me I think I was 14 at the
time.
>> Okay.
>> I I I I did have the account much longer
than that and Screwball went on. I
eventually I got out of that specific
situation and then played her straight
as like a the the kid around town that
was just uh wholesome. Um but that was
at the start of it and uh I I never
tried to like hide that past. It's just
that I didn't I was a kid basically.
>> Yeah. I mean, do you think that like in
retrospect with how
you conduct the account now that like
having that back catalog probably
doesn't exactly make you look very
presentable?
>> Um,
not really honestly. I I I I
was initially going to create
uh a new account to do this from. Um,
and I guess I'll have to explain what
doing this means in a bit, but um, I was
initially going to make a new account,
but then I decided to go with remaking
u retooling the screw ball account
because I haven't used it in years as
well as I feel like people don't take
things seriously unless they feel like
there is uh, this person has notoriety.
So they'll see a number and go, "Okay,
this is someone that is worth listening
to. It's not just rando on Twitter,
>> even though it's it very much still is
rando on Twitter."
>> Sure.
>> Um, you know, that's not to dismiss the
things I'm saying, but I am just a
random person on Twitter, and I don't
think that makes me more or less
qualified to give information. What is
or isn't qualified is what the
information actually entails.
>> Right. Right. And I mean, let's think of
it like this way. Like making a whole
new Twitter account means having to make
a whole new email and then having to set
all that up. And given how like Twitter
is, especially now, like it's just like
if you already have an old account on
the sideline, you might as well just use
that instead of having to go through the
[\h__\h] hassle.
>> Yeah.
>> So that's exactly what happened.
>> So for simplicity sake kind of thing.
>> Yeah. But also, I I already had
thousands of followers on the account,
and I knew that people would see that
and take it more seriously than if it
was a zero. Um, that's not me trying to
manipulate. It's just me wanting to get
the message out and knowing that people
can sometimes look over things that
shouldn't be looked over,
>> right? So, how did you come to learn
about the Black Griffin? uh story and um
t to kind of coincide with that uh
question, when did you first meet Sophie
Shrugs? What were your your guys' first
contact like?
>> Uh well, that is much later into the
initial question. Uh I I I did know.
>> Okay,
>> we'll start with the first one. Um,
I was, you know, I I basically grew up
in the fandom and I knew of Black
Griffin and all other party members that
would become part of this uh since uh
very early on when they all started
doing stuff.
>> Um,
but I was a fan for the most part of all
of them. Uh, I was at Brony's React
panels at cons. Uh sometimes when I was
there,
um I've met each of them prior, mostly
just for a picture, not like a huge
conversation or anything.
>> Mhm.
>> And
uh even as recent as 2019, the last
Bronycon, I was still a fan of uh
Gabriel. Um,
I I saw him and Michelle performing on
stage
and then come 2020, he was making some
posts on Twitter uh in regards to the
BLM uh civil rights movement.
And I started to think, hey, um, this is
this is not what I'd expect from him.
Mhm.
>> And I'm not really cool with it. So, I'm
going to tell him that.
And
uh trying to tell him that that's not
okay. Didn't really
go anywhere. He didn't seem to care. Um
>> what what what exactly did he say? Was
it just like a like a no like was the
perspective like a no lives matter kind
of thing? Like you know how that is.
A lot of it screenshotted and uh cited
in the Google doc. I I could pull it up.
I don't I just don't want to like
>> I mean I could do it too, I suppose. I
don't know if it's still
>> I don't want to misquote because people
like to um take anything I slightly say
out of,
you know, and use it.
>> Sorry, I'm I I keep saying
>> it's fine. I got it pulled off.
>> Yeah, I know. It's fine. I got it pulled
up. Is it under this one? Okay. I'm
seeing like his likes of Candace Owens
stuff. Uh
I don't
>> Yeah, I think the document creator has
changed the tabs again.
>> Oh, has that?
>> Okay. Racism, racism, and transphobia is
the section.
>> Yeah. Is it racism by definition is
hating someone simply because of the
color or assuming that because someone
is of a certain color they are not
deserving of rights? White
marginalization may be harder to come by
in America now but millions of white
Europeans were enslaved in the 1700s. Is
that what we're talking about?
>> Um yes and a few others. Uh his likes,
his uh retweets and uh things he
specifically said.
>> Mhm. Um, there is more that he said at
the time that aren't here. I I don't
know if that's because the document
didn't the document maker didn't put it
in there or if those are lost to time,
>> right?
>> But he he he had a whole thread uh of
him talking and going back and forth
with other users, too.
um some of them black themselves where
he would argue that white people have
been slaves so therefore it's the same
um when people try to explain to him
that white people were not slaves
because they were white people. They
were slaves because uh getting humans to
do things by force is an evil but easier
thing to do. while black people were
usually chosen because they were seen as
lesser and only as like work fodder.
>> Mhm.
>> Uh he didn't seem to care about that
aspect. Um
and he would say and he said things like
90% of racism isn't real, but but he
does believe it is a thing 10% of the
time.
>> Yeah, that's not in the document. I'm
noticing that now. Um,
>> well, I I kind of
>> like attribute It's okay. I kind of
attribute a lot of this maybe to perhaps
like a cuz you you know how like anti-SJ
I could speak on this personally because
I was in that field when I was like 16
years old. You know how like the
anti-SJW movements with the skeptics and
[\h__\h] like that got really big and like
it became kind of like this cannon
fodder thing for the last since like
2016 up to like 2020 kind of thing
>> and then it kind of like completely died
out during COVID. That's what I kind of
attribute a lot of this to is maybe just
like maybe had a he had a spint of an SJ
anti-SJW phase or whatever the [\h__\h]
>> I
I don't believe so because
he has never retracted any of this. He's
never made comments against these
beliefs.
>> Mhm. Um,
all of his more progressive comments
that Billy Bustup's document tried to
lift up um were more like good sounding
but pretty uh neutral and on and vague
uh like like people should be nice to
each other, stuff like that. Um it it's
not exactly going against what he
believed here. I think he just wised up
to saying it online.
>> Yeah. Being more open about it.
>> Yeah. Um
>> um I mean to be fair like I I I more so
just base that on the judgment of like I
don't like doing that whole guilt by
association thing. That's why I actually
like talk to people. Uh and and I I
completely agree like some of the likes
are concerning just cuz I don't like
Candace Ownans particularly. Um and that
Zubie guy I don't like at all. Like I
get it. Like but at the same time like I
I I see a Twitter like as more of just
like sometimes when people like things
on Twitter, they don't really think
about it. They just like, "Oh, that's a
creator I like." And whatever they
scroll. I would know this cuz like that
was what my Twitter likes looked like.
It's just liking a bunch of random [\h__\h]
that I saw in my feed sometimes. So I
mean
>> these correspond to what he was posting.
Like he was not only liking multiple
posts from these same people at the same
time,
>> all saying the same kind of spiel about
like how uh the right is being like
oppressed and how
all these other like conspiracy theory
kind of deals. U he was also going along
with what he was saying himself at the
time. Mhm.
>> Um and he would also defend it whenever
called out on it. Uh he doesn't respond
to much anymore, but he at the time he
would respond to everyone.
>> Right. Well, I mean I I can sort of
understand that like if you make a point
online sometimes you get very defensive
and you kind of double down and feel
like it's your responsibility to respond
to absolutely everybody who disagrees so
you can be like stand on principle. But
you know, you know how Twitter is. It's
like is that really worth it again in
the end? Is that really worth the
[\h__\h] struggle? I you know,
>> I mean, I I I can agree with that cuz
I've learned that um
if if someone is
going to think one thing, going back and
forth with them isn't always going to
change
>> anything. It depends on who you're
talking to,
>> right?
>> And I got into a lot of back and forth
with people
>> that were never going to go anywhere, no
matter what was said.
>> Yeah.
So, let's talk about Sophie real quick.
Um, you said you didn't mate her until
like way after you started doing this
kind of on your own. Um,
>> yes.
>> So, what what was the thought process in
letting them kind of cosign the account?
>> So, after I started calling uh Griffin
out on my main account, not Brony Fando,
it didn't exist at the time.
>> I mean, I guess it did, but it was still
the Screw Ball account that I wasn't
using. Mhm.
>> Um
I um I
I I was even still on the side of like
he him
and his situation with Claire is weird,
but I wouldn't consider it grooming
myself. And I was saying stuff like that
while calling his racism like
unacceptable.
>> Mhm. Um,
and that led to the conversation that
where Claire joked about wanting to be
groomed.
>> Um,
which then,
um,
spiraled into me
wanting to get consequences for not just
him, but for other bronies uh, that were
doing crazy [\h__\h] Mhm.
>> Um, Nazism is a huge problem in the
fandom.
>> I don't think,
>> yeah, I don't think Gabriel is a Nazi.
He is,
>> I believe, a racist, but I don't believe
he's a Nazi. There are many legitimate
outwardly facing Nazis in the fandom,
though. Um, and I think under the love
and tolerate
slogan, um, people find telling someone
they can't have a pony with a swastika
cutie mark, uh, as more drama like that.
You can't yell at someone for that.
They're not being mean to you. They're
just making a Nazi horse. Like,
>> what the [\h__\h]
>> That's the mentality that a lot of the
fandom had. Yeah. But it it it it gets
me that reaction where I go, "What the
[\h__\h] is happening? I I this needs to
stop."
>> Right.
>> Um so I see like some of the the biggest
faces in the fandom uh siding with a lot
of this stuff like a Prince Whatever
doing collaborations with a very outward
uh popular Nazi uh in the fandom.
Um, and I go,
>> just the term popular Nazi is insane.
>> Like, what do you mean?
>> No, that's the thing. In the fandom,
they act like it's not,
>> but if you go outside of that bubble,
>> it is very insane.
>> Uh, and that's why I felt like I was
going insane. And that I I had to do
more. So, that's why I did more.
>> I made an account with the intent to
call out all of this [\h__\h] Um because
like I was saying like Prince whatever
was collabing with someone and initially
instead of just uh calling him out I
tried uh talking to him, messaging him.
Other people even tried DMing him. He
would stop responding when that topic
came up. He would just drop the
conversations. He knew what was going
what was happening. We tried to get him
to know and then he would ignore anyone
trying to bring it to his attention.
>> Um, so then I started calling him out on
my main account and I called other
people out including Gabriel on my main
account and it always kind of got too
cluttered,
>> right? Um, if I made a thread about
someone and then I kept using my main
account for whatever, uh, personal
stuff, posting artwork I got or memes or
whatever, it would get lost. So, I
decided it needed to go somewhere where
it could be isolated, where someone
could sift through it all and it
wouldn't be lost in a sea of whatever
random [\h__\h] I'm posting.
>> Right.
So, I made the Brony Fandone account.
Um, I I don't remember if Gabriel was
the first person I even talked about on
there. I think it might have been Terra
Terra Strong.
>> Mhm.
>> Um, I don't remember. He might have been
the first. It might have been Terara
Strong. It might have been someone else.
I can't entirely remember but he was
very easily the most like popular topic
because there was so much surrounding
him that even then uh when I didn't have
all the information I do now he had the
most controversial
things to talk about already
>> um and people latched on to that uh
because the more information you give,
the more there is to talk about, which
isn't a good or bad thing. That is it
makes sense. Um I I do feel like a lot
of people just want drama and I try to
avoid giving them that. I I do really
just want people to see what's going on
and understand to stay the [\h__\h] away.
Um,
>> but a lot of people do want
I I know I'm going on a separate
tangent. I'll stop that.
>> Well, I get what you're saying. People
want the spectacle more than they do
this the story.
>> I I can to I can absolutely see that for
sure.
>> I And I don't want to give into the
spectacle. Sometimes I need to sometimes
I'd make posts joking about the
situation because I want people's
attention to stay on it,
>> but I never really have the intention of
making it into like a parade like we're
marching through the the the community
cheering about how horrible this person
is. I don't want it to be like that.
Mhm.
>> I just want more people to be informed
and for the conversation to not end
until actual consequences come.
>> Right. So, let me ask you this. Was uh
cuz you were originally calling uh Black
Griffin out for his racism, was the
whole idea of him grooming Claire, was
that like a Sophie thing when you first
started talking to her and like,
>> you know, really?
>> No, that's the thing. I didn't even know
who Sophie was even at that point. Like
I said,
>> um, when I was calling him out on his
racist post in 2020, I I was aware of
him, uh, being called a groomer by
members of the fandom.
>> Mhm.
>> That wasn't related to Sophie at all.
Sorry. Is there background audio you're
hearing?
>> No, I'm I'm grabbing I'm grabbing stuff.
I don't know if that's just me, but I
don't.
>> No, no, no. I was just there's there's
stuff happening on my end, and I'm sorry
about that. I was just making sure I
wasn't being a good guy.
>> I don't hear anything. You're good.
>> Okay, cool. Um, so I didn't know who
Sophie was and she was not the only
person calling Griffin out. Um, so I
don't think that I even heard that from
her and I did not know who she was at
the time.
>> Gotcha.
>> Um, and then as I was as I made the
Brony Fandone account and I was calling
out his racist pose, I did do uh a bit
of research and then came to and also
Miranda Singh situation happened. So, I
was a lot less lenient on what is
appropriate with minors after learning
all the ins and outs of that.
>> Right.
>> Um,
so, uh, after seeing more of what he did
with Claire and what led up to that, I I
learned that it wasn't okay. This was
all weird. It felt normal at the time
because I'd grown up seeing them like
always him with all these kids always.
Um, and everyone else acted like it was
pretty normal for the most part,
>> right?
>> Um,
but the more I looked at it and the more
other situations
similar to it happened, the more I came
to the conclusion that this was crazy.
This was this was not normal. just like
the Nazism. It felt normal in the fandom
because we were all told it was. Um, but
it really wasn't. And that led to me
calling him out on that. And then, uh,
more and more information being
gathered. And then eventually, um, other
people who had called him out in the
past had reached out to me and giving me
their support. But most of them were
still wanting to be quiet because they
had been harassed into silence in the
past about this stuff,
>> right? And I'm I'm assuming Sophie was
one of those people cuz she I think she
was the one that was calling it out like
five years before the Brony fanat was
even a thing.
>> She was one of the people. Yes, there
were multiple people that had previously
called him out on all of this um and
then went into silence about it. Um,
there was her the there's two other
women. I don't know their usernames
because I I don't know them personally,
but also they weren't like popular. They
were they didn't have their own bases.
Um, there was Wootmaster, there was Amy
New. Um
there were a lot of different people and
most of them had stopped because they
had gotten harassed or legally
threatened.
>> Mhm. Um,
so when I started uh getting traction u
and bringing all the information
uh they they found it and gave me for
the most part silent support in DM
saying, "Hey, thank you for doing what
you're doing. I tried to do this and it
didn't go well for me. So, be careful,
but also uh I'm really glad that you're
trying. Um and Sophie was one of those.
I think she was um told about me by a
friend and they they tried to like
convince her to step in, but Sophie was
scared to. Mhm.
>> Uh so Sophie just DM'd me uh some
support but said she didn't want to get
involved which I I understood and didn't
try to get her involved.
>> Right.
So what was the goal in like working
with Sophie and eventually letting her
into the Brony uh Fandote account?
>> I know I keep going on long stories to
get to the answers to these questions,
but there's a lot of like information in
between that
>> I mean that's fine. And I mean, whatever
details I I do encourage you to give me
as much detail and be as open and
upfront as possible.
>> So Sophie, like I said, didn't want to
get involved. She was scared, too. She
had a history of getting harassed over
this situation, so she didn't want to
step back into that.
>> Mhm. Um,
and she was going to stay away up until
uh Destiny Doodles uh messaged me, gave
me her story,
and I asked Destiny at the time if it
was okay that I share her story with two
other people, um, people that I knew
would want to help, um, and see what
they could do. Um, and Destiny was okay
with that. So, one of those people was
Sophie, cuz Sophie has a lot of people
that she knows. Um, and she also has a
lot of insight for a lot of this. So, I
wanted to tell her about this and try to
get her idea of what I how I should go
about this. Um, and everything that came
out uh from Destiny's story and the
reaction it got brought Sophie
to want to uh start publicly helping
with this situation again because now it
wasn't just Claire and Michelle who um I
I do consider them
like victims of grooming. Um, I know a
lot of people debate that, but
um, at the time they don't believe that.
So, fighting for that wasn't
it wasn't something that Sophie felt was
a winning battle. Um, it wasn't felt.
But this was different because I'm
phrasing that wrong, but Destiny
is a victim who knows she's a victim.
>> Mhm. And that changes things because now
Sophie was it was a trying to protect
someone who needed it, someone who
wanted it,
>> right?
>> Um
so she got involved and
wanted to
do what she could. Um
and then much later down the line uh
after the Snapchat victim came forward
and other things kept happening and uh
just a lot of
I also had called out uh a Nazi
convention
uh which they don't cut they don't call
themselves a Nazi convention but Marfair
is um consistently ly
uh 4chan users that also
um go by
the ter
I I'm sorry I keep trying to explain
little things
>> in this larger story but the little
things are so dense also that I keep
going on
anyways um I I had called out a Nazi
convention and that had led led to me
getting harassed by a lot of them. Uh,
ironically, them posting like horrible,
horrible imagery of like, you know,
trans people hanging themselves. And I
don't know why they were adding they're
sending that my way. I'm not trans, but
you know, the typical horrible 4chan
right-wing [\h__\h] Um, and I was get I
had a lot on my plate, so Sophie offered
to help. Um, and I and I trusted Sophie
uh after talking to her since everything
that happened with Destiny. Um, so I I
gave her access so that she could post
information
uh and while I just l looked away from
all the mentions and stuff that I had a
hard time uh always dealing with.
>> Gotcha. So was the Snapchat victim did
they come forward the same way that
Destiny did? just like uh DM you or
something like that?
>> Yes.
>> Okay. Uh do you uh what's your current
relationship with those two, Destiny and
the Snapchat victim? Like are you guys
still in contact? Um yes.
>> Have they been paying attention to any
of this stuff recently?
>> They don't really have um a choice. Uh,
I mean, Destiny doesn't the Snapchat
victim is still anonymous, but she I
don't feel like she has a choice in a
different way where
I it affects her greatly. Um, everything
being said about everything, people
dismissing the whole situation,
>> right?
>> She's very emotionally tied to it and it
hurts when things um
go poorly,
>> right? and she and she wants some kind
of closure with all this too. Um,
so they they are both very aware of
everything. Uh, and it and it affects
them. So I wish people would have a
little bit more tact when it came to
reacting to things because
>> Yeah.
>> No, I I completely agree and I hope
nothing but the best and everything. Uh
it's just kind of complicated with a
situation like Destiny's because Destiny
didn't really archive much of her
experiences with Black Griffin. So
that's something you kind of have to
take on face value. And that this is
something I had to unlearn even when I
was speaking to other people. Right?
When someone says there's no evidence
for this, that's not to necessarily say
they're lying. It's just the fact of the
matter is that they don't have anything
to present. That doesn't mean they're
not telling the truth. It just means
that like that evidence would have been
nice to have kind of thing. Um,
>> no, absolutely. I mean, I don't think
anyone here wants there to be less
evidence aside from if someone is guilty
>> for sure.
>> Um, so we I I have no reason to doubt
Destiny. I've before I even posted
anything, I looked into her accounts,
her history,
uh, and there she doesn't have like a
reputation of making things up. She has
her own u semif fan base that would be a
problem if she were to lose. The getting
into all this isn't really something
that helps her. It's just something that
could harm her if people were to dismiss
it all. Um
so
um there and it also lined up. There is
not really some anything that goes
against what she was claiming. I know
people
pose the fact that she um she got the
dates not exactly right when giving a
quick testimony to me in DMs
>> um as proof that she is lying,
but
it's not I'm like it is an accident and
that happens and it it's unfortunate
that it wasn't airtight
but
it There's there's no reason to doubt
that it was an accident. There is no
like big slip up.
It's it's just people want to give her
they don't want to give her that b they
don't want to trust that they want to
find a reason to get out of this.
>> Right.
Uh was like Destiny ever like close
friends or anything to Sophie shrugs? I
thought I saw a tweet maybe her saying
that like she at least knows Destiny
pretty well, but I maybe that's her
>> Sophie
didn't nec I don't think Sophie knew New
Destiny.
>> Mhm.
>> Um I I can't really speak on that too
much. I don't really know their personal
status on this, but I I from what I
understand, Sophie was aware of Destiny
because Destiny was someone that
followed Sophie and um responded to a
few of her posts in the past.
>> Okay.
>> But this was before Sophie was even
involved publicly,
>> right?
>> So, while Destiny knew who Sophie was a
lot more than Sophie knew who Destiny
was, Destiny coming forward had nothing
to do with Sophie. Destiny had no way of
even knowing that Sophie was involved at
this time.
>> Gotcha. Okay.
All right. That's why I I just thought
that like I don't know how close
everybody is to each other, but that's
what I was just curious about like, you
know, the closeness in relation to how
you you and Sophie are to everybody else
kind of thing.
>> Yeah, we
because of everything that's happened,
we all do talk. Um, but before then,
before all of this, I had not talked to
any of them.
>> Gotcha.
Uh, so when it came to the actual
document that I pulled a copy of, um,
the I don't know how many pages are in
it now, um, I want to say it's like 200
or 300 pages cuz I know things have been
added over time.
>> Um,
>> even as recently as um, I believe this
month, things have been added.
>> Yeah. Um, did you have anything to do
with that document's creation at all? Or
do you know who had created the document
if it's not you?
>> It is not me. I obviously a lot of the
information that I had already found was
used in the document because it's
information.
>> Um, but the person who made it found
citations that I did not have for a lot
of it. Um, they they went out of their
way to find the original posts that I
had previously only had screenshots of.
Uh, they found extra content, more
videos of things, even things that were
lost. um because they used the internet
archive uh sorry the the way back
machine and another similar service to
find videos that had been deleted on
either uh Griffin's or Michelle's or
Claire's end um that
I believe were deleted because they are
also damning.
>> Gotcha. So you you just shared it really
you didn't have any like you didn't like
contribute to it. You're not like one of
the authors or anything. There is only
one author and it is the the person who
has access to the editing of the doc. I
can't edit the doc. Sophie can't edit
the doc. The person who made it, she's
the only one who's able to access it.
And it's no one that anyone
is going to guess because it's not
someone with
a lot of stake. It's not someone who's
been very present publicly on any of
this.
>> Okay. Um,
and Claire had a guess as to who it was
and she that she posted under Jenny
Nicholson's posts and that person is not
who the author is.
>> Gotcha.
Let's talk about Michelle and Claire for
a second since you know they are related
to all this. Uh, you've had a lot of
online interactions with Michelle and
Claire. Um,
what are your motivations in, you know,
talking to them and like going back and
forth with them online?
>> Um, I tried to not honestly. Uh,
originally I was only presenting
information about Black Griffin to the
public. Um, and and that's what how I
ran Brony Fando. And before that, I um I
tried to get people in Gabriel's
proximity to know what he did on my main
account, which led to me responding to
Saber Spark talking about Gabriel Brown
uh getting a copyright strike.
>> Mhm.
>> Or something. There's there's some
YouTube dispute uh that he was trying to
fix. And I said, "All right, so Gabriel
Brown was innocent in this situation,
but he's not innocent overall." and
Saber Spark was like, "Yeah, I forgot he
ran over the kids, those kids or
something something to that extent,
which spiraled into me talking about
everything that he's done." Which then
spiral to Claire making that joke about
wanting to be groomed. Um, that was all
the same instance. Uh, but I but that
was a situation where I was still trying
to get the word out and then on Brony
Fandone, it was me presenting
information and then I would get
responses from either Gabriel or
Michelle or Claire that I would respond
to. I never went out of my way to talk
to them.
>> Um,
the only time I've ever done that was
after Destiny told me her story. I I
posted on Claire's
uh website about her projects or
something. Uh I I tried to get her to
tell uh Gabriel that I know about uh the
Destiny situation to try to get him to
talk to me.
>> Um and that is the only time I've
personally reached out to Claire. Every
other time I've been responding to her,
>> right? Um, I I know she claims that I
have been harassing her,
>> but that is genuinely the only time I've
ever gone out of my way to talk to her.
Every other time I've just been
responding,
>> right? Uh, I mean, I don't know if you
want to m maintain like any sort of
relationship with Michelle or Claire.
Um, but I mean, and even I've had this
criticism of you. I mean, you do
understand that like trying to fight
with people who are cuz they they claim
they're not groomed. Do you understand
that like fighting with people and
trying to convince them that they are
isn't exactly super helpful? I mean, I
understand you have your opinion. I get
it. I understand wanting to try to prove
your opinion and prove it to be true,
but don't I think it would just be more
helpful to Destiny and the Snapchat
victim who do
acknowledge that they have been groomed
and help them over fighting with two
other people who are very adamant that
they're not.
>> I just don't believe I've done that. I
don't believe I have been trying to
fight Michelle and Claire in in really
any way. Um, like I said, I've only ever
responded to Claire mainly when she's
talked to me.
>> Mhm.
>> Um, and in that I have debated with her
about things. Um, which I've tried to be
civil initially. Um, and then she
accepted and my personal information
from some anonymous docer. Uh, she's um,
uh, gone into my backlog and tried to
accuse me of some horrible [\h__\h] that
wasn't entirely accurate. She's tried to
use grooming, my my potential grooming
against me. There's there's been a whole
lot of
things that made it a lot more personal
over this time, but
um I only ever tried to
clarify what is and isn't appropriate
that happened. And I believe that
uh trying to tone down my wording on it
is a disservice to people uh and victims
because if if what Gabriel Brown did
shouldn't have happened. I think it is
grooming. I don't and I when I say I
think people run with that as an opinion
and yes it technically is an opinion but
it it is an informed opinion based on
what I know that happened and what I
know is what grooming consists of.
>> Um
all the things that have happened are
inappropriate. All the things that led
up to him dating her shouldn't have
happened.
>> Mhm. And I think that because they did
happen, it is grooming,
>> right?
>> If if I were to say that it wasn't
grooming, then it could allow other
people to get away with that, too.
>> It's not about Claire. It's not about
Michelle. It's about what how people
perceive situations because what
happened to them is perceived as normal
by a lot of the fandom and it wasn't
normal. So, I want to make sure that
people understand
um that none of this is normal and that
if they see this anywhere but being done
by anyone, they should at least
investigate and be a little hesitant to
be um happy about the situation.
>> Right. So, you said that Claire had
accepted your uh some doxing information
about you. Do you know exactly how you
were doxed?
I believe it was someone who knew me
personally, not someone who hacked
information. Um,
I don't know who it was. They were using
an anonymous account. Um,
but they they messaged Claire on Twitter
uh saying, "Hey, I have things like his
home address. Would you like those?" And
Claire responded, "That'd be great."
smiley face. Um,
and then then then I got a lawsuit in
the mail or I don't know if it's
considered a lawsuit or defamation. I
got a a legal threat in the mail.
>> Like a cease and desist.
>> See, I don't I don't want to say yes, it
is a cease and desist because I'd have
to look at the papers again to determine
what exactly it's called. Um, but yes,
and I got that back in October. Gotcha.
Did you have any lawyers look through
this paperwork or anything to tell you
what it was or?
>> No. I mean, it says it on the paper. Um
I I
>> Yeah, I I just don't want to because I'm
not like a lawyer or a legal expert. So,
I don't want to say it was a lawsuit or
it was a defamation or it was a cease
and assist and then people correct me
and go, "Why were you lying?" I I
genuinely just don't know which
terminology is correct.
>> Fair enough. What's important is that I
got a legal threat to retract things
I've said and issue a statement. Um,
>> and when I ignored that uh and kept
going, nothing happened.
>> Right.
>> Leading me to believe that it was
nothing more than a threat. Which also
leads me to believe that he does not
want an investigation.
>> Sure. I mean, fair enough. I'm not a
lawyer either. I don't know any legal
ter. I mean, I know legal definitions. I
do legal research, I suppose, but even I
I'm I'm just a person with Google. I
wouldn't be able to tell you.
>> Um, so that all of that kind of leads up
to like videos starting to get made
about Black Griffin. Uh, the two biggest
ones obviously were mine and Courtney
Pete's. Um, which
>> that's not necessarily true. Uh, Also
had one.
>> The [\h__\h]
>> Well, yeah, the uh the did you know has
been a hotel guy. That's what I know
him.
>> Yeah. Well, there's that guy. There's
another dude when I was doing research
who has like a Sonic OC or something
like that, which is ironic given the
circumstances,
but
>> the big ones that that most get cited is
mine and Courtney's at least in
opposition. And then there's a la which
is in the oppos. Um so I wanted to ask
this just cuz I know that in the
interview with Courtney um she did an
interview with Sophie uh but she didn't
do an interview with you. So what is
your whole relationship with Courtney
Pete since she's kind of tangentially
related to all this.
>> Can I do a real quick side note? I'm
sorry.
>> Sure. Yeah.
>> Uh so you said that Alamau was on the
oppos side. He he actually agrees and in
the video says he agrees with everything
I was saying. He just presents it very
poorly to the point where people thought
he disagreed.
>> That's what I Well, when I watched it,
he's just like, I don't know if if it's
whatever Claire Michelle says it didn't
happen, I'll take their word for it.
Whatever the [\h__\h] I don't know.
>> Yeah.
>> Like I don't know. The way he worded it
made it very much sound like he was
being very dismissive. So, I I just
assume he was just like, "Uh, nothing
weird's happening here or whatever the
fuck."
>> Yeah. Uh, that that's all I just wanted
to specify. I don't think the video is
bad because he doesn't agree with me. He
does agree with me. I think the video is
bad because he didn't put enough effort
into it.
>> He doesn't put enough effort into his
content, period, though. Let's be for
real.
>> Yeah.
>> No, I agree.
>> He does hotel fun facts about like
minute [\h__\h] It's whatever.
Yeah. Anyways, the real question, um, it
was, uh, sorry, what was the question
again?
>> Uh, Courtney Pete, what's your
relationship with her?
>> Uh, it was non-existent, um, at the
time.
>> So, my knowledge of Courtney was
slightly less than my knowledge of KP,
which was slightly more than nothing.
Um, at the time uh of me and Sophie
talking about Griffin and getting more
traction, finding more information and
putting out the uh the master dock in in
around the time of the master dock being
uh put out, uh KP's team started
messaging me about
um
the
DA games, the people, and I said, I
don't know anything about them. I mostly
do call outs on people in the Brony
community. I can't really help you guys
with this. I I don't know any
information. I'm already balancing a
lot. It's not even in my wheelhouse of
things I usually cover,
>> right? So, um, but then they kept
replying on threads about Griffin and
also like trying to
use that to bring attention to the DA
Games situation, which I don't really
have a problem with if it's a real
situation. And I do believe that DA
Games has done stuff. I don't think KP
was lying in her video. I think her
video was just really poorly done.
>> Right. Oh. Um,
there were sections that shouldn't have
been there. There are things
there there is a a hell of a lot of
memes that shouldn't have been there,
>> but I don't think the actual accusations
were ever lies.
>> Mhm.
>> Um,
so,
so, so when I say that they were
bringing up DA Games a lot, I don't mean
to say that that was a really bad move
of them. I I I think they were trying to
get attention for a serious situation. I
but I also have to question their
reasoning in hindsight
>> because I do believe that some of them
are were trying to do it for attention
purposes and not necessarily bringing
attention to the situation purposes.
>> Mhm.
>> Um so KP kind of was inserted into all
of this um and made a room in her server
about Griffin um and position positioned
it as any victims of Griffin come to my
server and you can chat about it here.
Um,
which felt weird even at the time
because she wasn't involved and
she was trying to play the role of like
the sanctuary for everyone and it felt
strange, but I joined the the server so
I could help answer any questions if
there were any. Um, and that led to me
being in a call with KP by by my own
doing joining a call that was going on
in that server when I joined the server
itself. Um, and then KP explained the DA
game situation to me and explained some
of the Saber Spark situations um, both
uh, things relating to DA Games and
things uh, relating to her personally
um, involving Saber that I don't think
she even really touched on in her own
video.
Um, but but she told me things that I
don't know if they're meant to still be
private because I thought she was going
to talk about them. They're there were
kind of re reasons why I trusted her
>> Mhm.
>> to bring up Saber at all.
>> Right.
>> Um,
point being, that was the extent of my
relationship with KP. And KP in that
conversation told me that um she
couldn't work on a Griffin video because
she was working on uh a lot of stuff
involving Saber Spark. Um
so instead she uh gave it to Courtney
and she explained to me that it was Lily
Singh's sister. Um and she also
explained that while that is true, she's
a victim of Lily Sings as well. So, I
was like, "Oh [\h__\h] that's horrible. I'm
so sorry. I'm I guess she'd be perfect
to cover all this,
>> right?"
>> Um,
then the Courtney's video came out and I
thought she did a good job with it. I
still think she did a good job with it,
honestly. Um,
>> but that was the extent of how much I
knew Courtney. I heard about her,
>> right?
And after the video, the day after, um,
I was talking in KP's group in her
server in the Griffin section,
and these two people that have been
harassing me for a long time, uh, ever
since I started calling Griffin out on
the Brony Fandone account, uh, were
talking in there and I recognized them
and I said, "Hey, aren't you this person
and they got real upset and they said
and they started uh double team that bad
wording. Uh they started going at me and
saying like how how dare you like they
they've changed their opinion long ago.
How do you how are you still claiming
that and spreading misinformation? I'm
like I don't know you guys. All I know
you guys from is harassing me.
>> Right.
>> Um
>> who are these people? And also it was
>> just two people two people in KP server
or
>> they no they they are people that have
been
inserting themselves into all of this
since the beginning.
>> Mhm.
>> I don't really want to name them because
I feel like one of them is similar to me
where they can't handle a lot of
uh harassment. And I I'm not I'm not
saying that I'm harassing them by
bringing them up. I'm just saying that I
don't know how pe like if if people hear
this and then they go looking for this
person, I don't know how that person
would react because based on previous
situations, but
um
but the they have been very
critical to put it lightly of me um to
the point where they even to this day
constantly talk about me. So,
um, I wasn't super happy seeing them
there. So, I I I did I didn't say a
whole lot, but then Courtney,
uh, came to came to their aid in a way
and like defended them. So, I messaged
her and said, "Hey, these people are
kind of like they're they're like
bullies of mine." Um, I don't I was
trying to explain the situation and I
was kind of hurt that she would do that,
especially since it felt out of place. I
I didn't know her that well, but I liked
her video and I thought she was well
spoken in it. So,
um, it felt uh, weird, so I thought I'd
talk to her. Um, and then she said that
uh, oh, you you you think you're being
bullied? what are you like a child?
And and it um it it changed my opinion
of her uh very quickly cuz that not only
children can get bullied and it is it
just felt very weirdly aggressive
>> out of nowhere.
>> Courtney is kind of known for being a
like outwardly kind of aggressive
online.
>> I' I know that now. Um
>> I I've known that for about a year.
like, yeah, it's
>> like I said, I didn't know who she was
really at all. Um, I just knew that she
made a good video and then I was
hesitant to promote it because of how
she personally treated me. But I didn't
I never went out of my way to te tell
anyone to not watch it or say anything
bad about her. I was just more cautious
about her after that.
>> Mhm. Um, and then after KP's video, I
saw how she was reacting to people and I
was kind of glad that I stopped
promoting the video specifically. Um,
>> fair enough.
>> I I still think it's a good video. I
just don't really want to platform
Courtney.
>> Yeah, I don't blame you. I don't blame
you at all.
She very much is like because of her own
traumas, she very much is like if you
don't experience my trauma the same way
I do, you know, that's the that's the
vibe I get. Anyways, there's there's
only one specific way you can be you can
experience the same trauma I went
through. And if you're not experiencing
it in the same way I did, you're, you
know, not a real victim or whatever the
[\h__\h] So, let's talk about my video for
just a second. Um, I know you've you've
left a comment where you had some
criticisms. You said the video is almost
perfect. Um, I know that Sophie even had
some issues with it. Uh, I've been told
through their great friend that she just
didn't like it at all. Um, so
I am somebody who's very receptive to
criticism. I've heard it from even
Becket when he talked to me for cuz he
needed my input for his video and stuff.
Uh, but you know, I've heard it harsh
from him, harsh from even enter at this
point. What's your issues with my video?
Just lay it on me, man. I I've heard it
all at this point, so I might as well
hear it from you who had was kind of the
first bouts of someish criticism. So,
what what's the problem? I suppose
>> I don't It's been a bit since I've seen
the video. Uh I I am
my memory is not amazing unless I really
like repetition helps me remember
things,
>> right?
>> So um I I remember a lot of information
revolving Black Griffin because everyone
asks me about it 24/7.
>> Mhm.
>> Um but specifically uh things
discrepancies in your video. Um,
I what from what I can recall, there was
information that was not accurate. Um,
that I felt like was very easy to
research a bit more on.
>> And I'm not trying to be like
super hostile or harsh right now. I'm
just trying to
>> Dude, I've heard it all. It's fine. Like
I said, lay it on me. It's whatever.
like obviously um who voiced who uh
getting that wrong wasn't the big deal.
It's not really the point of the video.
>> Although I I do think that is an example
of
>> like it would be easy to get that
information correct,
but it wasn't really
>> the time wasn't taken as much as I
thought it had had to be. But so with
applying that to more important things
like there was a
I'm going to be honest a lot of the
things I remember the things that
personally were about me. Uh I'm not
it's not because there I felt there was
only things to criticize there. It just
those stuck with me more
>> because it was about me. I'd have to
rewatch the video to remember exactly
>> Mhm.
>> the other problems. Um I think there was
stuff about the timeline with um Oh,
sorry. All right. I I do remember one
now.
>> Mhm.
>> Um I guess this does also involve me
though. Uh
>> you said that I was very um
>> I I I seemed very per like I I it had to
be my way or the highway um when it came
to Claire's situation and but then you
were also very
uh open about how you felt a lot of the
situations were inappropriate uh and
shouldn't have happened. And I I felt
kind of like
I I think we were just calling them
different things.
Uh but we're on the same page, but then
also you felt that I wasn't
I don't know.
Uh
I'm sorry. Like I said, if I haven't
seen the video since I watched it
initially.
>> That's fine.
>> So I I need to go back and watch it if I
were going to critique it.
>> That's totally fine. I mean, it's
private right now, but like uh that's
it's just to avoid like any further
harassment and stuff like that. So, I
mean, I I totally understand where
you're coming from on that. Like, but
that's why we're having this
conversation now to see where we are on
the same page. I think it's more just
like in we just both have like a
different interpretation on information,
which is not necessarily a bad thing.
It's just more so like I interpret it
this way, you interpret it that way.
Like, I'm not going to lie to you. Like
I I think any any age gap relationship
that starts with one of the parties
being a minor and the other one being an
adult is immediately I'm like uh-uh
that's weird. Like I don't care for age
gap relationships all that much. But
when it starts with one of you being a
like think of the logistics here of it
for a second.
>> [\h__\h] Claire and Michelle or Gabe and
Claire go into a bar and they meet some
new friends and Gab's like this is my
wife. And they're like oh my god how did
you guys meet? Well, I met her on this
show that we both worked on. So, they do
some research on her and they realize
she was on the show when she was a minor
and they're like, "Hey, did you did you
meet her when she was like a kid or
something like that?" He's like, "Well,
yeah." And you then you have to go into
a whole explanation about how you met
your wife when she was a child and how
it's totally not weird. That the
logistics of that I me personally, I
wouldn't want to be put in that
situation where I have to explain that
how I met my wife as a kid. That's
weird.
>> I agree. The logistics of that are very
like crazy. But for me, the the thing is
like I also I don't have a huge problem
with age gap relationships either. I
don't want to be in one,
>> but but like that's not even like the
problem. Like the problem is that he was
hanging out with his minor that he later
got into a relationship with.
>> Mhm. Um
because the there is an undeveloped mind
around someone constantly
subconsciously
whether intentional by Griffin or not
that person is developing around them.
>> Mhm.
>> And that doesn't ju just because the
person is okay with it doesn't mean it
isn't real. Like if if we start saying
that it was all right, that it's
implying that it was consensual and that
also minors can consent, which is not
something that I think most people would
agree with. But you they're not
dissecting it enough in my personal
opinion. They're not looking into like
the implications of being okay with all
of this,
>> right?
>> And it wasn't just like a once or twice
they knew they hung out um when she was
a kid. She was around her constantly,
talking to her constantly for years
before she was legal.
>> And I don't even think that the moment
she becomes legal, it becomes okay
either. Um,
he was a he was 24 when she met him and
she wouldn't be legal for another like 3
to four years.
>> Mhm.
And during those three to four years,
he he was tickling her, taking her
privately to the woods. Uh he was joking
about kissing her. He was
I don't think any of these things should
have happened. But even if they didn't,
just being around a minor,
I feel like it should dis it should make
her not an option in his mind,
>> right? for dating ever.
>> Mhm.
>> Because she grew up like she saw her
develop.
>> Mhm.
>> And it's it feels weird to even say that
because
you the the changes are drastic at that
age. Like I I don't I can't imagine what
going what's going on in his mind.
>> Yeah.
Um,
>> it's definitely very odd to imagine like
growing up and watching your wife grow
up, you know? Yeah. It's just it's just
it's very odd. And the thing is, if your
accusation is just like this is the
weird a weird [\h__\h] relationship, I
don't think most people would
necessarily disagree with you.
>> Uh I I think most people would be like,
"Yeah, you're probably right." But I
think it's like once you bring in
grooming into it and then Claire's like,
"No, I promise this isn't grooming. I'm
fine." Uh, but the narrative still is
that. Anyways, it I I think it rubs
people the wrong way. I think people
should be like, "We should probably just
listen to Michelle and Claire more." You
know what I mean?
>> I just don't think it matters what
people perceive it as. I think it more
matters what it is.
>> Mhm.
>> I I think that the situation was
inappropriate. Mhm.
>> I don't think many people would disagree
with that statement, but I I think the
reason why it was inappropriate is the
reason why it was grooming because this
child developed around in the in the
environment that he put her in.
>> Mhm.
>> He is a an idol in this scenario. He's
someone that she can idolize. She can
see as this larger than life figure. Um
because she's still her her brain is
still forming. That's not me talking
about Claire. That's me talking about
anyone at this age. That's how they
that's how people work.
>> Mhm.
>> Uh the brain is not fully developed
until like 23 to 25 years.
>> Um and I'm not saying that people around
that age can't date. I'm just saying
they probably shouldn't be dating
someone that's way younger than that. Um
the the reason it's inappropriate isn't
because it's weird. It's inappropriate
because it's harmful.
>> Mhm.
>> And that harm is grooming.
I'm I'm I feel like I am dissecting the
reason it's a problem.
>> Mhm. I if it was just weird, that's not
harmful, I don't think.
>> Right.
>> I I don't have a problem with weird. I
have a problem with things that
shouldn't happen to anyone. Um,
and I feel like the more information
that comes out, because much more
recently,
um, we we had a a third person, uh, talk
about how he when when she was a child,
um, was flirting and being weird with
her.
>> Mhm.
>> Um,
this is outside of the Snapchat victim.
This is outside of Destiny and also
outside of the Deviant Art. uh person
that was found.
>> Okay.
>> Um her name is Dorothy. Um
>> I see. Okay.
>> Yeah, she's also in the document now.
She was added later, but she went
through his Deviant Art likes and
started finding um like Lai Con and um
Billy and Mandy porn of of Billy and
Mandy that he liked.
>> Mhm. Um there then there's the
situations with Destiny, Dorothy, uh Gil
on Deviant. I don't know how to
pronounce their username, honestly.
>> I thought it was Jai or something like
that. I don't know how to pronounce it
either.
>> Something like that.
>> I think she's like Asian. Like I thought
she was from like China or something. I
don't know. She said something about
being
>> Chinese or I whatever. It doesn't
matter. It doesn't matter. But yeah, but
all that and then also um
the what what happened with them
and even sure we don't have proof of
Destiny and the Snapchat victim getting
sent his penis like they allege. But we
do have proof that for at least one of
them he was messaging them
>> as when they were a minor,
which is already more than just weird, I
feel. Like, why is he having these
entire conversations in DMs with people
that aren't of age? And why are they
usually like female? Um, and then but my
point is there's even more situations
that keep coming out. um him arguing
that if he were to date Michelle at 16,
it would be legal.
>> Yeah, that was weird. That was weird.
That was objective. I'm like, "Yeah,
maybe you shouldn't have said that."
Especially if you were trying to be
like, "This is just my sister." I'm just
like, "Just end it at that.
>> That's fine." like
>> this is such a laundry list at this
point that I I think I'm pretty
justified in having
at least
I feel like I'm pretty justified in at
least me perceiving it as grooming at
this point. If someone disagrees with
me, I guess that's fine. I I personally
think that's harmful because I think it
kind of dismisses it in all
circumstances with even other people if
they were to do something like that.
Mhm.
>> But
but I don't really think that people can
see me claiming all this with all of the
information that we have now
>> and go, "You're way out of line. This is
clearly not that." Because there's just
so much. It just goes on and on. Like I
I feel like I was rambling and all I was
doing was giving cliff notes of some of
the things that he's done.
>> Mhm.
I mean, if I ever need to know what
exactly what he's done, I do have the
document pulled up. So,
>> and then there's all the the times where
he and others have lied on his behalf.
Like, they know the situation, but
they're lying anyways. Why would they do
that?
>> Mhm.
>> Um, and then is the legal threats. He
threatened me. He threatened Destiny.
Um, and in both circumstances, nothing
came of it. Um, we both ignored them.
She was given multiple different
deadlines that passed. They came and
went and nothing happened.
>> Um, and he has sent legal threats to
other people. Uh, the whole reason that
Wootmaster dropped him is because of
getting a legal threat. Uh, and it
worked. Uh, Woot stopped talking about
him. Mhm.
>> Um
I that's not a circumstance where it's
proven that he threatened someone else
and then nothing came of it because
obviously they dropped it which means
they went along with the threat which
means you know the what what was argued
that they needed to do or else they'd
get into legal trouble happened. But
it's an another example of this is the
response, but every time that response
isn't met, it doesn't change anything.
And I feel like if it was real, it would
have changed something.
>> I mean, you know, people kind of send
empty threats all the time. I mean, the
only thing that I can talk about in
terms of like the Snapchat thing is that
that was kind a very common thing for a
lot of creators back then, especially in
2016 to like set up Snapchats and like
talk to fans. I know that like other
people in the anti-SJW sphere used to do
that too like and also you know Andy
Stein did it and we all know how that
ended I suppose.
>> Well that's the thing like Snapchat
feels like it was designed for this kind
of thing like a lot of predators used it
because of how DMs would be deleted
>> um like automatically.
Um,
and also the just the circle of friends
like also having all this other [\h__\h] to
them. Like it ju it just it feels like
an overwhelming amount of information.
Um, to the point where it it kind of
baffles me when people are very heavily
against the idea that anything happened.
>> Yeah. I I feel like you can definitely
point to some things to be like, "Hey,
that's kind of shitty." you know, like
to completely dismiss it outright. I I
think it's just like you're not looking
into the into the bigger picture of it,
I suppose. Like there are some things in
here that are criticizable. Like I can't
disagree with you on that. I mean,
people will just interpret the different
the information differently, I suppose,
is the main thing is like will people
see this as a big deal or not? Like you
know, Twitter likes, will they consider
that, you know, a big deal or not? Will
they consider talking to fans on
Snapchat when everyone was doing that
back then a big deal or not? You know
what I mean? Like it's like how how
severe is it to some people in
comparison to others? I suppose.
>> Yeah. I It's just that when someone is
defending him so strongly, it leads me
to believe that they don't want to
believe anything else.
They like they they are trying to change
people's perspective for more nefarious
reasons.
>> Fair enough.
>> Because not because like I am the
arbiter of justice or whatever, but
because there's just so much information
for for it all to be handwaved under
this isn't a lie. It seems like a
blatant lie to me.
>> Mhm. either they didn't look at it or
they're purposely trying to dismiss it.
>> Gotcha. So, what are your thoughts and
opinions of me being involved in all
this personally? Like, I know we talked
about the video a little bit, but like I
you've there's been some posts, I
suppose, on the Brony Fandode account
calling me just the drama YouTuber. And
just to clarify, like I I I get the
perception of that. Trust me, I do. I'm
not like being like, "Why'd you call me
a drama?" Like, I get it. But most of
the time when I make videos, it's just
[\h__\h] I hyperfocus on. Like it's my
hyperfixation the channel. It's like
what what interests me this week, you
know, kind of thing. So I just wanted to
get a read on whether or not we hate
each other or not. You know what I mean?
Like what's
>> I I don't I don't hate you. Um I don't
even necess So I don't even necessarily
dislike you. I don't really know you.
>> Fair enough to be perfectly honest. Um
>> fair enough. It's just
the initial video that you put out uh
said a lot of things about me that was
pedled by Bill the Billy Bustup
document.
>> Mhm.
>> Which you in your video
called out for lying, but you didn't
seem to do a whole lot of research on if
the lies if the things or the things
said about me had any truth to them or
not. and you and you kind of g gave a
rundown of them uncritically. I felt um
and I I feel like there's a lot of very
easy information where I I personally
give rebuttals and and site give
citations for why these things are just
out of context or lying that would for
someone making a video on this wouldn't
have been hard to find
>> because I I I was putting that
information out so people would learn
and if it it felt like I wasn't given a
lot of due diligence. I was waved away.
Um
even though like you already knew that
the the word they were taking this from
wasn't trustworthy.
Um
to give at least one example like um
they were calling me a 4channer and I've
never used 4chan. They didn't really
have any evidence of me using 4chan. Um,
and they uh they cited the screw ball
account and things that were said on
that, but they don't specify that I was
a minor at the time, that this was a
decade and a half ago. Um,
they don't
they they don't want that to be the
narrative. So when when you
when when you put out stuff like that
uncritically, it kind of made me wonder
like how much about this do you really
care about in terms of like is this just
content or or even if it's not? Are you
being driven more by wanting to help
people or wanting to criticize whoever
you feel needs to be criticized? Um,
and and it did leave a bad taste in my
mouth cuz it it you you are a big
YouTuber and I felt like I had gotten a
bit slandered and all that. Um, which
hurt, but I I I didn't
I don't know. Um,
but moving on from that,
I was
I I don't want to talk about everything
regarding Saber Spark um specifically
because the information that I revealed
to people
in that time, not not this not the
testimony itself, but information that
was given to me by the victim, I
shouldn't have put out there. I wasn't
given permission to put that out and I
regret doing that.
>> Um I was facing a lot of harassment by
Saber Sparks people at the time, his
fans. Um because he said didn't do it
and then
uh a lot of people were calling me a a
ri a liar about rape and ruining lives
and telling me to kill myself and that
they were going to dox me and stuff like
that.
>> Right. So, I was um I was feeling very
overwhelmed and stressed and
we all know how that turned out.
>> Yeah.
>> So, I I I I did things to try to
self-preserve that I shouldn't have done
>> and I normally wouldn't have. I'm not
trying to excuse what I did. I It was
wrong. But I want to clarify because
people
act like I'm evil for it. What I did
that was wrong was put out information
that I didn't have permission to put
out. I didn't make things up.
>> Um,
sorry, I'm getting off track. The point
is
>> that's fine. I mean, other questions
throughout this will kind of go more
into that anyway. And also, I'm in
contact with Emily, so like I know most
of this already. So,
>> yeah. I just in regards to what I said
uh about you in all of that, I don't
want to discuss because I shouldn't have
brought it up in the first place and I
don't really want to go more in detail
on things that I shouldn't have put out
there in the first place.
>> Fair enough. I mean, you know,
it was just something I was curious
about like because I mean, you know,
>> in in private I can talk to you about
that. I just can't.
>> Yeah.
>> I I don't I don't want to go over it for
other people.
>> Um
>> but going past that to um the videos
with um Mr. Enter uh Phineas and Emily.
Um I thought your interview was very
good because it gave
Emily a chance to talk about everything.
>> Um but I felt Mr. Venttor's video was
really bad um because it dismissed a lot
of
critical information,
kind of handwaved it away. um and also
didn't didn't address all of it. It
didn't bring it all up, but seemed to
imply that it had
>> which gave I would feel like would give
people the idea that there wasn't a lot
of information when there was a lot
more. Um,
and then also hyped up
uh
right-wing uh
slop tubers. I don't know what to call
him. I don't really have I was going to
be more respectful with the name, but
then I realized this guy sucks. So, um
>> I call them commentary bros. That's what
I the commentary broph sphere. That's
what I call it.
>> I mean, there are people that are
commentary bros. This is more like
um
a
one of those people that say like some
offensive [\h__\h] and then you go, "Whoa,
that was offensive." And then they go,
"Haha, I owned you." That's that's the
kind of person I'm talking about.
>> Gotcha.
>> Um
so I
>> I mean we can point
>> I got the questions here. We we'll just
go in order of those because that's
eventually something that's going to
come up. So
>> yeah, I I I I lost track and I'm sorry.
I know that was
>> bad.
>> No, no worries. That's that's why I'm
here to mediate. Um, so there I know you
kind of answered this question already,
but to stay track on like make it easier
for me in editing, I suppose. Um, so
what is exactly is your relationship
with I love Kim Possible a lot? Are you
still currently in contact with her or
anything
>> after? So, like I said before, I didn't
really know her prior to her putting out
that video. She was kind of inserting
herself in a lot. Um, and then I joined
her server. I talked to her a bit,
realized that she did have personal
interactions with Saber Spark that were
um not great, and um that she was making
her own video on Saber. So, when I was
approached uh to help Emily with her
story and I and me and Sophie both knew
that we were overwhelmed already and
weren't going to be able to balance
Griffin and Saber. Um, I suggested KP
because I knew that she had uh was
already doing exactly that topic and
because I knew that she had u personal
things to say about it.
>> Mhm.
>> So to me that felt like a very slam dunk
like oh that's that's magical that that
lines up
>> right. Um I and if and otherwise I would
have handled it myself cuz I don't
really know KP. Um and I I wouldn't
trust someone else to do it if if I
could but I couldn't have. Mhm.
>> Um,
which that was for a while the extent of
my conversations with KP until the video
was closer to coming out and she
messaged me and Sophie randomly with uh
the testimony that she wanted us to post
on the Brony Fandone account with a
little preamble uh that she also wanted
us to attach the front of it. Mhm.
>> Um,
and I did not use that preamble cuz it
was saying things that we thought that
we didn't think. Um, it was kind of
speaking for us on things. Um, but I did
post the testimony because I wanted to
help. Uh, and I I thought, well, if this
is the plan, I'll go along with the
plan.
>> Sure. Um, you know, I I don't really
want to get involved with all this cuz I
can't really focus on like doing an
investigation and all that. Um, like
publicly, uh, putting out information.
Um,
but I did know it was Emily and I did
look into her and know that she had no
reason to be lying and she did have
interactions with Saber,
>> so I wanted to help regardless. So, I
put that out and then KB got mad at me
cuz she said, "No, no, not now. When the
video comes out on that day and so I
deleted it." Um
>> Oh, was that the early leak? Is that
what that she's referring to? Cuz she
said it got leaked early.
>> Yeah, she didn't specify when she wanted
this to be posted. In fact, she didn't
talk to us about posting it at all. She
just kind of said, "Do this." Um,
so I did it and then she got mad at me
uh and told me to get rid of it. So I
got rid of it and then waited until the
day. Um,
>> so like the whole like putting it on
premiere and having like a a date
release
wasn't my idea either. Um,
uh, but then that day came, video came
out. Uh, it was bad and I wasn't able to
start watching it immediately.
Um, I didn't see any of the reactions
because the reason I wasn't able to
watch it cuz it was busy. But the moment
I was able to watch it, an hour in, I
was already thinking, "This is bad." So,
I messaged her and I start telling her,
"Hey, um, what's going on? This is not
what I thought it would be. So far, I'm
an hour in and it barely talks about
anything legitimate. It's just talking
about personal things. Um, getting
testimonies to your character uh and a
bunch of memes. It It was weird. Um,
uh, and then I then once I started
messaging her, I started seeing other
people's reactions and how like Emily's
testimony was only in the last like 10
minutes or something.
>> It was an hour and 30 in or something
like that. Yeah.
>> Yeah. And I was getting more and more
upset as I found out more and I was was
watching more. So I started explaining
to her, "Hey, take this down. This is
going to do more harm than good."
>> Um th this was not me reacting to other
people. This was my personal reactions
in the moment.
>> Mhm.
>> Um and then she said, "All right, I'll
I'll speak to my team. um see what they
say and then she privated the video
after like another half an hour.
>> Mhm.
>> Um so I tried to get the conversation
back on track with talking about what
happened to Emily on online instead of
people talking about the video, but that
didn't go well.
>> Right.
>> And then after that, sorry, go on.
>> No. Yeah. Well, it's a little hard to
talk about the whole Emily situation
without it being tangentially related to
that video cuz that's how it was kind of
presented unfortunately, but you know,
>> Yes. But at the same time, not a whole
lot of people had actually been able to
watch that video
>> as it came out.
>> Uh it was it was more talked about
because it kept being spread um in in
the aftermath of it. And I I was still
trying to work with KP. I was trying to
get her I I got her to take it down and
I wanted to uh I I was trying to
reassure her that hey, it's not the end
of the world. You know, you made bad
calls and it was very tonedeaf, but it
can be fixed. Uh it'll be all right. Um
and I thought she understood that what
the parts that were her bad.
>> Mhm. Um, up until she started like
defending, not not defending as much as
criticizing people's criticisms, it it
seemed like she didn't understand at
that point. And then she started
threatening Emily. Um, so, uh, that was
when I cut ties with her entirely.
>> Gotcha. I was still trying to reassure
her that things could be fine and we
could work through this and I was trying
to help her. I at that point I had taken
a more active role and everything
because things had spiraled and I could
no longer just be on the sidelines on
it.
>> Right.
>> Um
>> but I was feeling for her cuz I felt she
she was getting a lot of harassment and
I didn't feel like she had bad
intentions so I wanted to help. But then
she was being awful and I stopped
talking to her and that was my extent of
my relationship with her.
>> Right. Um so how did you learn about the
allegations against Saver Spark
initially?
>> Um it it was brought to me uh by Emily's
friend. Um, and she told me that uh
Emily would like to talk to me about
everything
uh that happened to her.
>> And I said that I I wasn't going to be
able to handle it at the time because,
you know, I was suicidal back in October
when when I was approached about all
that.
>> Mhm. Um,
and
uh, Sophie was also overwhelmed with
everything. So,
yeah, we weren't
Saber Spark. While we believed
everything that was happening, and we
still do believe everything that
happened to Emily, it wasn't something
that we thought we could tackle, at
least not until uh, the Griffin
situation was over.
>> Gotcha.
I mean, so you went to KP just because
like you already knew that she was going
to talk about Saber Spark, so you're
just like, "Oh, well, that works out."
>> I I didn't go to KP. I just suggested
KP.
>> Oh, okay. Okay. I thought that you like
brought her to her or at least
redirected her, I think.
>> No.
>> Okay. Uh, were you aware of like
the stuff? You said you did some
research on Emily Jones, like and you
didn't think she had any reason to lie.
Were you at all aware of like any of her
previous controversies? Because I know
there's been like a couple of videos,
not that they're great videos, but there
are some videos that discuss like her
stuff with Ryan Drummond and like the
stuff that happened at Sonics and Tales
R, her thing with Cessy, like the all
the stuff that we talked about in the
interview. Like, were you aware of any
of that stuff?
I I did see that stuff and the videos
seem to be very
um pointed intentionally. Uh and I I
kind of have I can pick up on that when
it's pretty clear sometimes.
>> Mhm.
>> Um
and and it it gives me pause. Um, so
when when people are talking about she
had sex with a Sonic VA and it is really
bad because that's Sonic and she worked
her way up the industry. It's like I
don't know. There's a lot of leaps and
it it seems like if if there's other
information you're trying to give me
surrounding that, it feels like this
none of this is really with the intent
of pointing out genuinely bad things.
It's more in the point of filling out a
um a roster of reasons to distrust
someone,
>> right? Um, and
I know people accuse me of doing that,
but I I I feel like this entire the the
master document, while I did not write
it, I feel like none of it is nothing.
All of it adds the same conclusion,
right?
>> Um,
not not all of it's on the same level of
intensity, don't get me wrong, but a lot
more of it is uh more than just damning.
Um, and the ones that aren't damning
>> as much still help um, paint the the
picture of everything there. There's the
small details
>> do uh, cooporate
the rest.
>> Right.
>> Um, but all the people that are calling
out Emily all seem to have a grudge and
not uh, good intentions.
>> Right. Right. Uh, were you ever aware of
the changes that were made to the
victim's testimony by KP and Courtney?
>> I didn't know any of the I any of the
changes to the testimony I didn't know
of until
late May.
>> Mhm.
>> Well past everything that happened.
>> Right.
>> I did not know that it was not Emily's
own words entirely.
>> Gotcha. um because I had already known
the story for the most part and it for
more or less lined up with the main
points. So any discrepancies were
smaller. Um
it it wasn't like a huge change in the
story as far as I was aware. Um, right.
>> I mean, they're not huge changes, but I
think one of the bigger ones that bring
contention to her testimony was the uh
issue of implied consent, you know?
>> So, I mean, and to me, it just seemed
really weird for KP to argue that
conside like implied consent is [\h__\h]
and then be recording people without
their consent to do so and being like,
well, it should be obvious I was
recording kind of thing. It's like, uh,
do you not Do you not see how that that
argues implied consent? Like, you know
what I mean? I'm
>> I feel like those are two very different
things because one is uh consent to be
recorded in a conversation and the other
one is uh the difference between rape
and not rape.
>> Sure. But like cons when you're giving
consent, I mean it's not just exclusive
to having sex with someone. It's giving
your consent to really
>> No, I know. I know. I know the the word
is broader than just in the the context
of sex. I just I don't like comparing
them cuz it feels like two very
different extremes. I don't I don't
think it's hypocritical of KP to do that
because it it it technically is the same
word, but in two very very different
extreme contexts. Um,
I I I don't really have a problem with
KP having recorded DA games personally.
>> I I feel like she
I I don't like that she lied about it
about about doing it.
>> Mhm.
>> But she was trying to get proof of what
he did to her. Um, and I believe what he
did to her,
>> right? So
I I don't really have an issue on that
sense. Um
>> sure. Like I don't really necessarily
cuz it's complicated, right? Cuz it's
Discord and usually when people are just
like, "Oh, that's like wiretapping or
something like recording without
permission to party like all that
stuff." If you I could tell you from
even talking to Mr. Enter, right? If you
try to bring those charges up on
something that is a Discord call,
they'll just tell you like what the [\h__\h]
is Discord? Like it's it's the rules are
not the same or either that or like [\h__\h]
like the police are not like well
equipped in internet knowledge to know
that that's the same thing kind of thing
I guess.
>> Also it's it's legal in most states. One
party consent for recordings is a thing
unless it's something that breaks
privacy more like like getting like nude
pictures of someone without their
knowledge or something like that. But
this is not that.
>> Yeah.
>> Um, so
like I I get that people can maybe have
qualms with how she went about it, but
ultimately I think it is just worse on
DA games and I don't have a
>> Oh, I know. Like the level of severity
isn't the same. I just find it
interesting that she
>> how how she views consent. That's all. I
think I personally I think it's weird
that she altered the testimony at all. I
I I don't like that. I don't like that
she was reviewing it and adding her own
opinions and little tweaks to it. Uh I
think that it should have been Emily's
words and then she could give advice on
what to change instead of going in and
altering it herself. Um
>> Sure. Cuz at that point it doesn't
become Emily's story, it just becomes
their story.
>> Yeah. And it's like how she gave us this
to post with her own opening paragraph
phrased in our words about how to
present it when we didn't give those
words and they weren't how we would talk
about it. I I didn't like that it was
just dropped on our laps. This is how
you're going to present it.
>> It's not really that's not really what I
was ever going to do.
>> Mhm. When you say that she gave you like
an opener, right? is are you talking
about like how the tweet should be like
the tweet that comes with the testimony?
Is that what you're talking about?
>> She gave a paragraph
worded from our perspectives
that was meant to go up and then the
testimony come after it. like saying
basically I Bonk and I Sophie have done
this and this and we believe this is all
true and the this is the story. It was
there was more in there but that was
that's the gist of what I'm talking
about. She basically role played as us a
little bit to give us instead of just
telling in instead of us asking us to
give a disclaimer and summarize like
what we're about to be presenting,
>> she made up a presentation for us. And
that feels similar to her altering the
testimony
because it makes it it makes it hard to
know like what is and isn't coming from
KP. Um,
>> yeah.
>> And now Emily has
>> Do you happen to have this by any chance
or
>> Yeah.
>> Oh, cool. May I see it if you don't mind
it?
>> Yeah. Um, I think one of the biggest
problems with it is that it's it implies
that Sophie was also made aware of
everything and did an investigation
herself,
>> which was not true. Sophie did not have
involvement
um really. Uh, so it it kind of just
lied in that thing that we're supposed
to present.
>> Oh,
>> so that's why I didn't use it.
>> Um, I I made my own introduction to the
testimony. Um, in in my not, you know, I
wasn't speaking on behalf of Emily. I
was speaking on behalf of me presenting
Emily's testimony.
>> Yeah. Cuz it felt weird for her to put
words in your mouth.
>> Yeah. And some of those words weren't
even true.
>> So, what was it like like as you try to
pull that up? I don't know. you can
probably give it to me after or whatever
the hell. But
>> uh what was it like like receiving the
initial backlash at least the victim
testimony and the video itself? Like
what was that kind of like?
Um
it it was worrying because you know
obviously
um now this is all tied to the Brony
Fandone account and that is all tied to
people with actual
um
people that were actually abused, people
that want to have their stories heard
and believed. Um, and now people are
taking this video and going, "Well, this
was propped up by the Brony Fandone
account, which means all of the
information that Brony Fandone provided
is like ineligible."
>> Mhm.
>> Which I don't think that's how
information works. Um, if it felt very I
I was very incredulous about it all. Um,
but
it doesn't matter if I find that
baffling. It matters how people perceive
things.
>> Um,
and I try to remind people that there is
information put out. It's not my words
that people are going off of. It's what
is presented to them
>> that they can see with their own eyes.
>> Right. Um, but it wasn't it was an
uphill battle when everyone wanted to
talk about the KP video because I feel
like that
for a lot of people is comedic to talk
about. It's it's drama. It's this train
wreck that they can all point at.
>> It made it 10 times harder kind of
thing. Like what already was an uphill
battle is now like a steep slope.
>> Yeah. And at the time it wasn't even an
uphill battle anymore for Griffin. It
was like we all the battle was pretty
much going great. We we we
convinced people uh we were able to show
people all the information
and had been able to get a lot done. Uh
he was dropped from Mob Entertainment.
He was dropped from uh multiple
conventions.
Uh people that knew him personally saw
this information
and were were starting to rethink their
relationship with them to the point of
also leaving him and telling us more
information that I can't share, but
really highlights just how much is
[\h__\h] up with the situation.
>> Mhm.
>> Um
I that's all I can say on that. I can
say that there are people that were
close to him that know a whole lot more
that I can't provide to the public.
>> But it is also damning,
>> right?
>> Um,
so
sorry
I keep getting off off track.
>> No, it's okay. Uh, I mean, I guess since
we're talking about like the initial
backlash with all this, uh, it kind of
leads into events happening on live
stream. Uh, we don't have to talk about
that if you're not super comfortable. I
totally understand.
>> It's okay. We can we can talk about it.
>> Okay. What What was going through your
mind then? What the [\h__\h] happened?
So,
like I said, I don't want to discuss the
things that I shouldn't have posted, uh,
because they were things that I was told
in confidence.
>> Mhm.
>> And then posted anyways. Um, but I will
say that what led to me
doing that was Saber surprisingly
released his video that morning um
is saying that the allegations against
him aren't true. And then he went on to
talk about KP and me and Sophie. Um,
so
I felt pretty good at the time because
at first it was like, okay, he's
pretending that Emily does not exist at
all. This will be easy. Uh,
I could let people know that Emily
exists and then this video is pointless.
Mhm.
>> Um
but uh things went differently and
people
were latching on to his video a lot more
than I expected to because he doesn't
really say anything in his video aside
from KP's video is bad and uh Brony Fan
don't wants clout because he calls out
other people.
>> Mhm.
Yeah, KB's video is bad and I do call
out people, but the examples I gave that
he gave aren't examples of clout
chasing. They're examples of people have
done [\h__\h] Um, so I didn't expect the
reaction that people had um to that
video to be so strong in his favor
saying that he proved him his innocence
when he didn't even talk about anything.
>> It's not really pro. I know people make
the argument that like if if it's an
alleged thing, what is he supposed to
talk about?
>> But he still didn't prove he was
innocent.
>> I mean, he's he's he has the challenge
of having to prove a negative kind of
thing. Like the most he can say is just
>> I mean, the most he can say is just
nuh-uh. Like at the time, and if he's
going to set up doing legal stuff, he
can't say anything beyond just nuh-uh.
You know what I mean? Like if he wanted
to prove his innocence, he he if he's
planning on doing any sort of lawsuit,
he'd do it in a courtroom. Maybe that's
what he's saving that for.
>> I
I I can see that perspective. I just
can't see the perspective of people
claiming that he proved anything.
>> Mhm.
>> Because at best he said he didn't do it.
That's the extent of evidence that he
gave to him not doing it.
>> Right. And I understand that people uh I
I understand the argument that he can't
prevent he can't present evidence of him
not doing something that he didn't do. I
understand that argument. It just
doesn't make it that he proved anything.
>> Mhm.
>> If he can't prove it, then he can't
prove it. But he doesn't even attempt to
go over it. And if there's more reasons,
if he's it's because of a court case or
anything, sure. But it's still not even
evidence against what he what happened,
what was alleged to him.
>> So people believing so strongly that he
without a shadow of a doubt is the
innocent party now was surprising
because he didn't say anything.
Um
so it it I was getting more and more um
depressed as that went on. I felt less
hopeful. I felt that people were now
people kept trying to tie it to Griffin
2. They were saying things like, "Well,
if he's going to lie about Saber Spark,
then he must be lying about Black
Griffin, too." Just dismissing all
information without even acknowledging
any of the information.
>> Even though it wasn't my word alone. Um
it wasn't even word of mouth. It was
physical things you could perceive.
>> Um but they wanted to just wrap it all
in a bow and say, "Well, we can forget
all this now." And it it was devastating
because
I I I talk to the people that are
affected by all this.
>> And at this point, I'm affected by all
this, too. People know who I am. It was
never a secret.
>> Mhm. But
it I am
attached to everything. So I wouldn't
want to go around saying crazy
incredulous [\h__\h] if I wasn't sure. Um,
and I am still sure of what happened
with Saber Spark and with Black Griffin.
>> But people were
telling me that I just wanted attention,
that I'm a liar, that I was making
things up. Um, and it felt
it felt so hopeless because I knew it
was stupid to be blunt. I I there's no
reason for them to believe that. Nothing
that I've done presented
uh a person who just wanted to say [\h__\h]
for the sake of saying [\h__\h] Um, they do
they
at like at worst if people want to say
that it like I have bad intentions or
something, they can say that I believe
things too strongly if they really want
to. But to to act like I was seeking
validation through all of this, like
just wanting to get internet points or
that I was making stuff up, like it's
very dismissive for no reason. like I I
don't feel like I've done anything to
make them believe that, but that was the
that was what was being said anyways,
>> right?
>> Um and things kept falling apart from
there.
>> Uh the because Saber Spark made a video
about it and it was very public. It got
like a million views within the first
few hours from what I recall. Um
I um
people in my personal life were started
to think that oh well if everyone's
saying he's a liar he's probably a liar.
Uh not people that I'm closer to. Those
people understood the situation to some
degree. I don't really try to inform
everyone on the Griffin situation in my
personal life. I try to keep it as
separate so I can remove myself when I
need to. M
>> but uh my closest friends did know about
the situation and how I was uh trying to
help people with it. Um and so they they
understood that this was all [\h__\h]
but it was a lot coming on me. But the
people I wasn't as close to saw it and
were like, "Oh, e and dropped me without
even asking me about it." And it hurt.
It it it kept piling up. I felt that.
Well, now for the rest of my life,
people are going to use this and point
to it and say, "Don't work with this
person." And as someone who wants to
make projects and do things, um,
collaborations
at some point, um, someone who's been
trying to do things, um, this is going
to end possibilities of that just
because I was trying to help people. Um,
and I can't really change that
perspective. I can't just tell tell
everyone
it's not true and have them believe me.
I can't They won't always give me the
time a day to explain every little
minutia of what happened.
>> Mhm.
>> Um,
so I started to not see any hope for my
future.
Um, and people kept telling me to kill
myself. And I've I've had suicidal
tendencies in the past.
And people like to use that as evidence
that I am a liar, that I'm suicide
beating. Um, because I didn't actually
kill myself.
And I thought there's only one way to
prove them wrong, to let make people
believe
that I am not making things up. I'm not
just trying to get empathy. Uh, I
genuinely
have no sense of a future right now and
I'm genuinely in a terrible state of
mind.
>> Um, and the only way to prove those
people wrong is to do it, is to die.
>> Um,
I don't feel that I proved them wrong by
streaming and recording me going up to
the bridge. that wasn't my goal. Because
if that was my goal, that doesn't change
anything. That they could still be like,
"Well, you didn't do it, so you must be
you're a liar. You're just fading." My
goal
in that moment was to do it.
Uh because it was the only way that they
would stop
telling me how I actually feel
>> and maybe hopefully
stop acting like it was all disproven
and maybe they would start looking into
it again. It would be big news again and
they would believe Destiny and they
would believe the other victims again.
>> Mhm. So, I wanted to change the
narrative on everything and I thought
one swan song and it could maybe get
better. Um,
but I I get scared. I don't
I don't want to be hurt. I don't like
cut myself or anything. I don't want
pain. I just sometimes life gets to a
point where I don't want it
>> and every time I I think about it or do
anything about it, I back out because
I'm afraid that I'll mess it up and I'll
just be in agony.
>> Mhm.
>> In in those extreme moments, if I ever
had a way of instant like
out, I might have taken it. But jumping
off a bridge is not a guarantee. Uh
other methods that I know are not a
guarantee. So luckily I don't I haven't
done it because I'm I always my brain
starts rushing with but what if I
survive this but then I'm just like
broken as a person like physically uh
and I I it hurts and I or I lose a leg
or something and and then I have to go
on and I have bills from the hospital
and like it my life is just this harder
but I'm still living it.
>> Mhm. So
that
that um got me to stop and I I felt like
I couldn't stop because I've already
gone that far.
>> Mhm.
>> But every thought is rushing in my head.
The thought that if I don't do this, it
will only be worse. It won't have
changed anything if I don't do this. The
thought that if I don't do this, I'm
going to be put back. uh in the hospital
for like a another week because I've
I've done that before and I've hated it.
It just it just feels like I'm sitting
around waiting to go back to my life
while things are still bad. It doesn't
feel like I'm getting helped. Um
and I I didn't want to go back to that.
So, I thought I needed to. Um sorry, I I
every question you give me, I go on and
on.
>> No, it's okay. I I'll I'll just just cut
you off by asking like how like you're
doing okay now. Like I'm very sorry that
this sucks. Like I come I'm in your
shoes. Like I'm not a cutter either, but
I I have moments where I'm just like I
wish I could just fall asleep and never
wake up. Like I get it. I totally get
it. But I just I just hope that you're
doing okay now. You know,
>> I'm I'm doing all right now. Things have
>> mellowed out. I've I've stopped fighting
every person on the internet.
>> Mhm.
>> Instead, I just the the ones that are
very clearly not caring about what they
say,
uh, I just block. I don't and it's has
been better,
>> right,
>> doing that.
>> That's what that feature is for.
>> So, it it feels like I I need to prove
myself. I I feel like that a lot of
things in my past have made me the kind
of person who always needs to prove that
I'm not
nothing. Um
but I I I realize that I can't convince
people who don't want to be convinced
and I can't I it is and people who want
to just insult are not going to be
convinced by me.
>> Sure. Um,
and sometimes I I would validate it in
my head like, well, I'm arguing with
them, but it's for the sake of other
people to see and see how stupid they're
being. But I realized that it's just
better to present the information
without all the extra nonsense on the
side.
>> Mhm. So, what was the reason in letting
you back into the Brony Fandone account?
Like I mean from my perspective, right,
and this is just me speaking on behalf
of like if I were in Sophie's situation,
uh if I had seen that this whole
situation and being online had caused
you to want to jump, I wouldn't have let
you back in the account. And that's just
me. That's just because I want to look
out for you and I want to make sure that
like if if social media makes you
suicidal, I would I would keep you away
from the things that make you want to
kill yourself. So, I I'm just curious as
to why you decided to come back to the
Brony Fandone account.
>> I don't want to speak for Sophie, but I
I don't
>> I don't think it's that
>> I don't think it's the way you you
explained it. I I I think that
>> she understoods
the circumstances of what led to
everything
>> Mhm. were extreme.
Um, and but those circumstances were
also not something that would happen
every day.
>> Um,
even if Sabres Spark made a second video
talking about me again, the level of the
things would not get to the same height
as they did in that point. Um
the I for one I've already dealt with
that so I could be better prepared but
two like people aren't going to have the
same energy that they would they had in
that first initial surge when everyone
was just you know knee-jerk reaction to
going at it. Um
and she she knows that I was doing
better. we we talk and
I I didn't even want back in to keep
doing things. I wanted back in so that I
could remove um the situations that I
did leading up to that
>> because I was not myself and I posted
things that I shouldn't have.
>> Mhm. Uh, you know, I I I didn't post
things
that were lies or that were like
that were bad. I but I posted things
that were
not as levelheaded as as I should have
been and some of them were things that I
shouldn't have shared because I didn't
have permission,
>> right?
>> Um, and I wanted to not let people just
look at that all the time. And I but I
did want to unlock the account
>> so that people could still see every all
the information that was provided about
all these different things,
>> right?
>> Uh I didn't I didn't want that to be
inaccessible because of me. Um and I
knew that Sophie had a hard time looking
at the account after everything that
happened.
>> Um
>> I'm surprised she didn't just delete it
herself to be honest. like
>> she had a hard time
getting on like
she she was there during everything. She
saw what I did. She was scared for me.
She
>> she she's
a very caring person. She did not let me
on because she does not care.
>> Mhm.
>> Um it was not easy for her. Um, but I I
feel that people
aren't as
people that aren't us have less lenience
on what is and isn't
um okay in that situation. What isn't
what isn't isn't a good idea because
they don't really see us as people. They
see me as someone who's unstable and her
as someone who
uh allowed this unstable person back
onto this account, which that's not
that's not a summary of me or the
situation. That's that's a very like
from the lens of someone who only knows
that. That's how it seems. But we're
people. We live our lives. It's been a
lot of has happened while only being a
month uh a month and a half since all
that.
>> Speaking of people that portray you as
crazy. Um segue uh let's talk about the
Copenith video. Uh Copenith is a content
creator also known as Becket and there's
a second person that runs the account,
Jenny I believe is her name. Um, and
they made a video that features Michelle
and Claire and a lot of other people on
the polar opposite I suppose of this.
Um, they bring up a lot of things about
you. Um, a lot of things about Amy new
and also Sophie Shrugs. Um, and most of
it was mostly just kind of explaining
h how bad the KP video was. KP was in
that video which I was very shocked by.
I I would to be fair though, she's
talking to a lot of people like like uh
that slug guy that I'm like why would
you even [\h__\h] talk to him? But
>> yeah, I think she talks to anyone who
asks honestly.
>> Literally. Yeah, that's what the feeling
I was getting. I'm just like if I were I
know so much about Schlug that I would
have advised her absolutely do not talk
to Slug. But um that video comes out.
It's like two hours. Um I don't exactly
remember absolutely everything from it,
but I did take notes somewhere. It's
just not in front of me. Uh, what was
your opinions of that one? Um, I know
that you're probably not super pleased
with it considering how you've kind of
referred to Beckett as a I don't even
know. You were very much alluding to not
liking.
>> He's a right-wing loser.
>> Okay, there there it is. I suppose.
Yeah. What is your opinions of the
video? What's the problems with it that
you have?
>> I haven't watched it and I refuse to
watch it. I I know things that happen in
it. I've seen parts of it uh that have
been sent to me. Um and I know that some
of the people that are talked about in
it have told me about their sections on
it and how [\h__\h] it is. Um
so I don't want to even promote that
video. Um
>> and I don't care to watch it.
>> You don't you don't want to give it a
watch at all to see what was even said.
I think this person shouldn't be allowed
online in a legal sense. Um,
>> why is that?
>> Because they're like an Alex Jones type.
They they they're like a Keemstar. They
they want
they they don't just want attention.
They want attention and they're willing
to put anything out to do it. Um, and so
far, like since releasing their video,
um, they have made posts on their
account, uh,
the insulting everyone and harassing
everyone that they talk about, including
Amy. Like, we're we're not going out of
our way to talk to them. They're going
out of their way to poke us as as like a
they're trying to get a reaction.
>> Mhm. Um, they have since also like found
old fanfics that I wrote from when I was
a minor, not problematic in any way,
just fanfics that I wrote when I was
young and they're not the greatest and
just make fun of it and and brag and go
like, "Haha, it's so funny that look at
look what they did."
>> And it it's just really telling like it
none of this is relevant in the
slightest. It's just to like insult and
harass,
>> right?
>> Um, and I I know people were going to be
like, "Oh, he's trying to use what
happened as an excuse, but like like I I
I literally tried to kill myself a month
ago, and this is what they're doing. I
don't even talk to these people, and
they're just going into my past and
trying to laugh at things that aren't
even a problem." Mhm.
>> Like
um
they stalk my accounts and post anything
that they think uh will get a bad
reaction uh or a re good reaction to the
people that want bad for me. Like I I
posted uh a Kofi link on my personal
blue sky because I was doing financially
worse than I had expected. Um, and I've
been in the red a bit.
>> Um, it's been it's been I don't I don't
want to get into that cuz I
>> It's fine. I It's whatever. It's
personal. I get it. But
>> yeah, my my point is just that I was in
a really tough spot. I don't do that
lightly ask for money. Um, and I don't I
wasn't asking anyone specifically and I
also wasn't asking through the Brony
Fando accounts at all. I I wouldn't do
that.
>> Mhm. But they were posting it as if
like, oh, look look look what they're
doing. Oh, like they're they're trying
to like get everything they can out of
all this,
>> but it's removed from all of that. And
it's because I was in a bad place
>> uh financially and they're just making
fun of that. It is it's cruel and
unusual. It it's not a problem that I'm
doing.
>> Right. So, can I just ask like cuz you
you call them alt-right. What gives you
that impression that he's alt-right, I
suppose?
>> Well, every
I I've I've dealt with people like this
a lot. Um I I kind of pick up on a uh
the subtext
more than the people I I know a lot of
people are going to go, "Oh, so he just
thinks highly of his like perspective,"
but no, not necessarily. Um but he
follows like only 11 people and one of
the and two of them are Keemstar. Um he
these people
they they say things that are like
slogans in their circles. Um and though
and a lot of those slogans
uh are telling of their environment. Um
cope and see is one of them and that is
literally their name
>> right. Uh they they they are a rage
baiter
and they're outwardly saying so and they
are using that slogan that is primarily
used by people who are trying to get
reactions out of people in like usually
like
a in an anti-LGBT or anti- uh minority
sense. Um,
>> I mean, you don't think it could have
just been that it's just more edgy and
not like linked to like alt-right isms?
Cuz like when I think alt-right, I think
of somebody who uses like a Nazi dog
whistle. And I don't know if Copen is
necessarily a do is like a Nazi dog.
>> Not that one is not necessarily a Nazi
dog whistle, but it is a right-wing dog
whistle.
>> Okay. Um
they they they do dog whistle quite a
bit. I don't know if they're
specifically a Nazi, but they are
alt-right.
Um
I I I
it's hard to explain this kind of thing
because if I were to go down if I were
to go through their account right now
and list things, they would just go,
"Look how crazy they're being. They're
saying that this term is means this. I
don't mean it that way. And then a lot
of people would go, "Yeah, totally. He's
being crazy." But that that's the point.
It's a They gasolate.
>> So you you said you haven't watched the
whole video, but you've seen parts of
it. What parts of it have you seen?
>> I I've seen uh sections that people have
sent to me directly. Um,
and I've I've been um told other parts
of it um through word of mouth. I've
tried to avoid it both because I feel
like this person isn't someone worth uh
giving attention to, but also
>> because uh sorry, go on.
>> I I completely understand it from your
like I I mean the video doesn't talk
kindly on me either. Like, so I
completely understand from an avoidance
perspective, but at the same time, they
have Michelle and Claire both in the
video. Do you not think that that's
something maybe you should hear out a
little bit? I mean, especially since
they're people that you've had
interaction with online.
>> I mean, like
they what all they do from what I
understand is repeat that they don't
feel that they're victims, which is not
new information to me. Mhm.
>> Like I I have I've I feel that this
video would just be
upsetting to watch for me as and I I'
I'd like to avoid that. Um, but also I
feel like the video is just going to be
um, and from what I've seen is um,
people saying things
uh, and then copy nodding aggressively
um, with those things.
>> Not it's not information. It's not uh,
new context. It's just
disagreeing and then everyone going,
"There you have it, folks." I know that
a lot of it is them talking on me and
Sophie and
trying to paint us in the worst light.
Oh, and I know some of the things that
they're saying are just
complete [\h__\h] So if there is more
in there,
you really have to trust it in the midst
of people that really are intentionally
lying. So, I I I don't think there's
anything of value there because if there
are things that are real,
you can't just you can't figure out what
it is. Because Claire says things like
Sophie
uh made her pet her a pet snail at a con
because
um Claire felt that she would be she
would be uh at at threat of being talked
about poorly by Sophie if she didn't.
>> Mhm.
>> Which when you when you when you think
about that scenario, it's insane. And
I've heard what actually happened in
that scenario and it is insane and
Claire knows it's not true.
That's the thing.
She's lying on intentionally. So I don't
feel like I need to hear what else she
has to say cuz I the things that Griffin
did regardless of how she feels about it
shouldn't have happened. Mhm.
>> It's not If it was not happening to
Claire,
it wouldn't change my opinion of it.
There are things that shouldn't have
happened and not just to Claire. And
Claire defends all of it.
>> Mhm.
>> Um and and a and a lot of the time she
lies about it. So I don't feel like
she's a reliable narrator for any of it.
So her opinion doesn't really
change anything for me. I I I to an
extent I feel empathy and I'm sorry that
she had to go through the things that
she went through. But if she's going to
use
how she perceives things to also like
diminish what happened to Destiny, what
happened to the victim on Snapchat, the
happened to the um all the others, uh
Dorothy,
Gil,
um all the racism, like
it it just it's just too much to really
I'm not great at talking. I'm sorry.
>> No, it's fine. It's fine. Um I I am kind
of confused because you you said that
the that Copen shouldn't be on YouTube
in a legal sense.
>> Could you elaborate what you meant by
that? Like what do you mean by legal?
Well, I I don't think what they So, I
mean two things by that
>> because one, part of that video is
illegal,
>> but two, I feel that
>> um Claire posts her therapy appointment
audio
uh in that video. Um and that's illegal
in two ways.
One, she can't do that without the
consent of everyone in that room. And
even if her even if she like while while
a lot of states are um one party consent
based
>> Mhm.
>> Therapy sessions are not the same thing
as in a public setting
um or or like they are they are under
different restrictions. They are much
more private.
>> Mhm. It's it's kind it's kind of more
akin to recording a court se session or
something else in a legal sense than it
is to recording a Discord call. Um
so she uh verb she's just not allowed to
do that regardless of what the contents
are. Um, but aside from that, she also
spliced it in in ways to make it sound
like conversations that didn't happen
happened.
>> Mhm.
>> Um,
and manipulating that uh audio is also
illegal. Like not even in like a well
this might be illegal, this might be a
gray area. No, the the both of these
things are illegal and can and probably
will get this video removed.
uh in at some point.
>> How do you know that?
>> I I said pro probably because they
physically
>> they are illegal and if action is taken
to it, the video will be removed. I
don't know. Um, but but like that
depends on if action is taken on it by
people and also if YouTube takes it
seriously enough cuz YouTube
their track record for things isn't
great.
>> Mhm.
>> Um,
but aside from all that, I feel like a
lot of the video is very blatant
slander. like not they're not trying to
present people
with information. They're trying to stir
up a fight. Um
they I I don't believe that even they
believe everything they're saying. Um
so but but that part is not actually
illegal.
I just believe they shouldn't be allowed
on YouTube to do things like that,
>> right? where their intent is to
uh just sling mud for the sake of
attention.
>> Um
so that's what I guess the legality
sense of it is what I was curious about.
Um because you said they shouldn't be
here on a legal sense and you're talking
about uh how it's not legal to record a
therapy session. And I mean that's I I
don't know really the laws on that.
Again, I'm not a lawyer. But in terms of
like consent, right? I mean therapy
sessions get recorded all the time by
both therapists and their patients. If
she's releasing this cover like this
audio file, right? She as the patient
has the right to do that. She is like
patient rights
>> legally. No.
>> Based on what I mean she's the
>> therapist could lose their job. Okay.
How do you know that
>> doing that?
>> How do you know that the p that the
therapist didn't give her permission?
>> Well, there's two things to that. One, I
don't know that, but I So, it's
possible, but I would believe probably
that's not the case because of the
second thing, which is they're not the
only two people in the room, and all all
of the people involved in that would
have to be consenting for that,
>> right? Um
>> it was uh so the three people in that
room cuz I've seen the video were
herself, her father, and the therapist.
Correct.
>> Yes.
>> So we don't know if the therapist has or
has not given her information about
whether or not they consented, right?
And I'm assuming you don't know the
therapist personally. It's not like
you've asked.
>> No, I don't.
>> So you don't know her therapist. We
can't immediately assume whether or not
the therapist, you know,
>> I'm not assuming. I'm I'm not I'm not
assuming that I'm not saying that I know
for a fact or not whether the therapist
gave consent
>> for that. All I know is that
the all three people in that party most
definitely did not give consent. And if
that is the case and the therapist uh
allowed this anyways, then that would
mean the therapist broke the law as
well, which I don't think they would
have done. So, I do believe based on
that that this was Claire's doing alone.
>> Okay. But that's what I'm trying to
whittle down, right? We can't assume it
was the therapist that knew about this
because we don't know the therapist.
>> We We can assume
>> if they didn't know about this, Claire
is still breaking the law
>> and the therapist can lose their job for
what Clare is doing.
>> Okay. But she also can't release that
audio without the permission of that
therapist. And if she released it, then
she would have have to ask, sorry, she
would have had to ask the therapist
anyway. So the only person that leaves
to have not be 100% giving their consent
would have been Ian. So my question
>> No, I'm saying that Claire recorded it
on her own. I'm not saying that the
therapist had this recording and gave it
to Claire. I'm saying that they didn't
know about it.
>> Okay. But if she's releasing it to the
public, she has to ask the therapist
first if she can release it to the
public.
>> Otherwise, it would be get released to
>> legally. She would have to have the
consent of everyone to have even
recorded it in the first place,
>> right? But we can't just because we
don't know the therapist, we can't
assume whether or not they had that
conversation. So that all that leaves is
Ian. Do you know if Ian did or did not
give consent?
I don't think there's a reason for him
to have given consent for that. Um
>> I mean, why not?
>> I
>> I mean, if they're doing a group therapy
session together and they and therapy
sessions get recorded all the time for
the sake of the patients,
you know, he could have
>> That's not necessarily hold on. Um,
not that's not as common as as it
>> I mean I'm speaking on this on behalf of
someone who's had her therapy sessions
recorded cuz I asked like I I've been to
therapy like I know that this happens a
lot more than
>> I'm not saying that it doesn't happen
and I'm not saying it's not a common
practice.
What I'm saying is that I don't believe
what was done was legal.
>> I suppose I cannot prove that it was
done illegally. I will concede to that.
>> Okay. Are I Well, that's what I'm trying
to figure out. Are you assuming that's
it's illegal in the sense of what the of
how it was perceived by the therapist?
Cuz if she's releasing out to the
public, obviously she consents, but like
is it basis on the fact of how Ian feels
about the video, like the audio
recording, or how
>> I don't believe the audio was recorded
with knowledge by either of the other
two parties.
I don't believe Claire got their
consent. I don't believe they were aware
of what she was doing, which is illegal
if that's what happened.
>> Okay. I'm just trying to figure out how
you would come to that conclusion,
though. Like, unless if you've
personally spoken to these people, you
know, cuz I don't want you to be like
talking on behalf of others that you
haven't spoken to.
>> Well, the second part, regardless of
this, is legal. the the fact that she
spliced it. She took the audio and
changed it up.
>> What's the legality behind that?
>> Like,
>> well, it it's just misinformation. It's
just slander. Like, it is
>> it is her altering and tampering
evidence to paint a specific picture.
>> Um, obviously, uh, courts are kind of
behind when it comes to the internet.
So,
>> uh, this kind of thing might might be in
a more gray area, but audio recordings
are a lot more easy for
older generations to wrap their head
around still.
>> So, the fact that it is altered and
switched is a lot more straightforward,
>> right? Uh, all right. I mean,
I I'm I I guess I was just curious about
that just because I I we don't talk
about Eden a lot in context. I know in
my video I did and I know that uh Claire
has made accusations against him. Uh I'm
not sure how necessarily you feel about
those accusations really.
>> I don't know what happened in their
home.
>> I also don't think it changes anything
with Griffin. All of the things I think
about him are out there. Um, aside from
some more stuff that I was told uh by
parties that are not ready to come
forward,
um, everything I know from about Griffin
is information that I have presented.
So, regardless of if Ian was abusive or
not,
>> it doesn't make Griffin not abusive. Um,
so my opinion on Ian is that I don't
know. Uh, I'm not Ian. I've I once
talked to Ian at a convention. Uh, I
think this was 2017
maybe.
>> Uh, Brony Con. Um, I talked to him about
the SL. Yeah, this might have been 2017
cuz that was immediately after the
Ratchet and Clank movie cuz I talked to
him about he was going to star in the Sy
Cooper movie as Sly Cooper.
>> Mhm. And I talked to him because he had
no line because everyone was there to
see his daughter who was sitting with
Black Griffin at her booth. Uh which is
not something that anyone else was
doing.
>> Mhm.
>> He was not like one of the main guests
and yet he was in that that room with
everyone,
>> right?
>> Um but uh he didn't have a line so I was
talking to him about that. Um and it was
a nice conversation but that was the
extent of any conversation I've ever had
with him. He's never like talked to you
about because I mean you're talking
about his daughter pretty publicly and
you have like you're one of the main
accounts that right like is pushing for
the story. So he has never
>> like interacted with
>> I have not talked with him since that
that moment. No, that was before I ever
called out Griffin or even thought ill
of him.
>> Mhm. Um, and then years later I started
calling out uh Griffin
>> and I I've not tal to Ian once and since
then. I think he probably knows
everything that's going on. I'm not
going to lie, but I have not talked to
him personally. Um, I I I don't think
he's manipulating things behind the
scenes because I operate
regardless of him. Mhm.
>> Like I don't I haven't talked to him. He
hasn't talked to me.
>> All the things I post aren't things
provided to me by him like some have
theorized for
>> Yeah. Claire has theorized that cuz when
she first noticed you, she thought it
was her dad.
>> I like I said, my initial reason for
calling him out at all was because of
the racist posts.
>> Mhm.
>> Um and that was happening in real time.
So, the theory that Ian was manipulating
me and tricking me into doing this is
kind of crazy given what I know happened
to me in real time. And uh the the fact
that both Claire and Billy Bustup's team
have pitched the idea that I am either
him or an operative for him. Uh
it's it's it's silly,
>> right?
>> Uh and I wish people saw that more.
>> Mhm. Has he ever spoke? Because I know
Sophie Shrugs uh did con stuff. Is that
like something that maybe has she ever
had a conversation with him? Cuz you
said you met him at a con and had a nice
conversation. Did she ever meet Metacon?
>> I don't I don't know. I I don't I can't
really talk about like I don't want to
talk for other people.
>> All I can say for for certain is that I
have not talked to him.
>> Okay. Um what else? I guess I had a
question about whether or not you would
ever want to have a conversation with
Copen Seath. I'm going to take a guess
and say that your answer is going to be
no.
>> I don't want anyone to have a
conversation with Copen. In fact, if all
of the information that was in that
video was represented by you and then I
could react to that, I would do that
>> cuz I I don't have like I don't want
people thinking that like I'm hiding
something trying to get them to not look
at his video. I just think he's a [\h__\h]
person. and I don't want any attention
going his way.
>> All right. Well, I mean, I guess that
answers my question.
I I suppose that answers that for sure.
>> Yeah.
>> So, I guess we can get into Mr. Ent's
video now because you said that you
liked the interview with Emily, which I
feel like the the interview with Emily
was important enough so that she can at
least not be anonymous anymore because
Reddit already figured out who she was
like really quickly. So, the fact that
she has a say in her own testimony is
very important. So, that's cool. But you
said you didn't particularly like his
video and you were going to react to it
at some point. Uh I mean is what's your
issues with it? I mean I thought that he
took a pretty middle of the road
approach which I think is the safest
thing to do if you're going to because I
mean presenting allegations like this in
any sense like no matter what they are
is kind of a risk to your career. Like
you kind of you have to kind of
understand he's trying to play it safe.
Well, he highlighted Copen Seed as a
reliable source, which I think is a
stupid move. Um, okay.
>> But also, uh, he presented a lot of
information regarding Griffin as, uh, he
was very dismissive of a lot of it and
presented some of it, but not some of
the more damning stuff. Um, but didn't
like I I said this earlier, but when he
presents some of it, but not the full
picture, uh, people are going to get the
sense that this is like a summary of it
at the very least, and it's not an
accurate summary either.
>> Mhm.
>> Um, and he talks about the document very
passively, saying that like there
there's like a shotgun attempt at uh,
calling Griffin out when it it's I don't
really see it that way. Um,
I think that all of the things in the
document are actual condemning evidence.
It's just that some of it is not so much
um as other parts.
>> Um none of it is nothing,
>> but some of it is a lot more than other
parts. And that's why it's in sections,
>> right? Um,
and I think it did a lot of harm to just
a agree with Copen and go document not
really that that important cuz this is
like it it it's stuffed with
information.
>> And I I I I thought that Griffin was a
monster just from the racist post alone.
And I still do.
>> Mhm. Um, everything else just makes it
all that much worse. It just has made it
so much worse. And
dismissing that just feels crazy to me.
And then
>> he get he gets more information where he
get he reveals the Mando pony stuff
>> and then he hypes that up because I I it
feels like to me that he found that
information so it's important to him but
the other information he's just reading
that and he does he doesn't like me. So
he he connects the document with me even
though I didn't write it and says that
once I'm out of the hospital I'll
probably harass him. Um,
so he's very dismissive of all of
everything that came before him.
>> Mhm.
>> And the Mando Pony information, while I
think it is a good find, I don't think
it's like the most revolutionary twist
in all of this. Um, and the video with
Michelle is it is another inappropriate
video. It is
gross to look at.
>> Mhm. Um, but it is it is one of multiple
other videos that are also in the
document that he didn't really care
about, but it's new information that he
found.
>> So, it comes across to me as um
more a personal like invest in in
personal investment versus actual
presenting information
>> and concern for the situation.
>> Right.
Well, I mean, if if it means anything,
he didn't say that you wrote the
document. He said that you shared the
document, like which he says in your
defense wouldn't technically be a uh
evidence of defamation if you didn't
write it yourself. You're just sharing
information. So, it's not that he's
saying that like, you know, the
documents are nothing. I mean, he didn't
even say the documents like all nothing.
He said there are things in there like
the the Deviant Art comments are
objectively creepy and there are videos
that were put in the documentary where
he's like, "Yeah, no, these are
objectively really [\h__\h] weird." Like
it's not like he's saying there's
nothing in there. It's just that you
have to weave through what's more
important, what's not. Cuz my thing is
is that like the main accusation that
most people is say is the most damning
for sure is that he's a groomer. When
you bring up he's a racist also, it's
like not that no one cares about racism.
It's more so like, okay, what do we care
more about? Like off-handed ignorance or
intentionally being malicious to
children?
Like I think
>> I disagree pretty strongly with that
perception. I I don't think that they
are things that you can compare. Um not
because one is lesser, but because I'm
not going to try to compare. I think
they're both horrendous actions
>> and they can both be called out. Sure.
>> And the reason I keep trying to bring
attention to it, especially recently, is
because every time it's talked about,
the pe the um the people def who defend
Griffin ignore that. They don't want to
even touch it. Billy Bustup's uh
response document
didn't didn't even show any of that
despite the fact that they were trying
to make people believe that they were
showing the information against Griffin
and then countering it.
>> They purposely left all of the racist
stuff out. Um,
>> well, again, it's because their
prerogative is supreme. He's not doing
any because I mean,
>> no, but they they they touched on the
topic of him being alt-right, quote
unquote, which is not something I or
other people that I've seen have accused
him of,
>> but there is a huge section of my thread
of the document of other things
>> where we talk about racist things that
he's done that would go against the
morals of their game even and their
community,
>> right? Um, and they they they act like
they cover the accusation by making up a
different accusation.
>> Mhm.
>> Um, they know about that all of that and
they don't talk about it. Um, and it's
because I feel like they can
they they know that they can tell
people, hey, this isn't grooming because
everyone's cool with it. Um and and a
lot of people that don't understand the
nuances of
people and what is and isn't
inappropriate will go, "Yeah, that makes
sense. Um why should I have a problem
with something if
>> and
and you sorry I was about to I was about
to get on a tangent and then I stopped
myself and then I lost track of myself."
>> No, it's fine. Well, I think the
prerogative for them is to prove that he
didn't do the thing that is like absolut
like I mean [\h__\h] You're accusing him of
doing something illegal. Like grooming
and then also sending dickpicks is
illegal. Racism in and of itself as bad
as it is is not illegal. Like they can
condemn the the stuff he said on
Twitter, but that's the most that they
can't do. They can't pull I mean they
don't. Yeah, I get that that they don't
really, but their main prerogative is
like, do we want to keep somebody on our
team that's committed a crime? Like
>> I think the racist stuff should be
reason enough to not want him working in
them in any respect either either. I
don't think that that's justifiable.
>> I don't think any of them justifiable,
>> right? Well, I get that
>> it is a company and that's their choice.
But I want people to understand what
they've done and like not work with them
either if they're going to choose that.
I don't think that racism should be
excused.
>> I don't think even if it's not even if I
were to compare everything and say that
this is the lesser battle, it's still
enough that they should have dropped
him. I I and I I think that is something
that I cannot concede on
because it's it would be immoral for me
to
>> That's fair enough. I I I I think that
the reason that they don't touch that is
because it is so black and white what
happened
>> that they can't defend it.
>> And even with Copen when I was when I
was talking about
um on uh Twitter and Blue Sky the other
day about how people still try to ignore
the racist stuff and try to dismiss it.
He intentionally only screenshotted the
part where I explain why I'm bringing
that up and then laughed about it. He
doesn't He didn't screenshot the parts
where I talk about what racist stuff
Griffin did. He doesn't go into that. He
just says it's crazy for me to be
talking about this.
>> Mhm.
>> They That's what happens with all these
people,
>> right? They can't talk about it because
if they do not condemn it,
it looks bad.
>> Mhm.
>> And if they do condemn it, then it's not
only getting the word out that he did do
all that, but it is also still like
being tolerant of it because he did all
that, but we're we're not really focused
on that. So, we're not going to it
doesn't matter to us.
>> Sure. Um,
I think if all of the pedophile stuff
did not happen,
if all of if everything that's accused
of him and everything that's proven that
he did also did not happen and all that
was left is the racist stuff, people
should still drop him.
>> Is that like ultimately your goal with
this is to have him dropped from
everything?
My goal is not about him. It's about
people not being able to do that. Being
able to be so harmful, to harm children,
to be racist openly, and then chill with
everyone like nothing happened. I I
think that allowing all of that makes it
worse in general as a as a society,
>> right?
>> Um you know, I use the word I know
people will meme it, but um
it love and tolerate. People put up with
something enough, it becomes normalized.
And then you have a pony fandom that has
a huge section of Nazis.
>> Mhm.
>> Um
I don't think these racist posts are
okay in any regard. Uh he never
apologizes for them. The most he does is
apologize that people took it the wrong
way. Mhm.
>> Um, he doesn't talk about the the things
he's liked that are
hor horrendously racist and transphobic.
He doesn't talk about the videos where
he does a whole like black costume and
impression and gets a minor to do it
with him on two separate occasions. Uh,
he because he can't
and none of his defenders can talk about
it either. I think it's very telling.
Um,
and I I I don't want it to overshadow
the other accusations, the grooming, uh,
the the sending pictures, the the
being with this child all the way until
she's an adult and then marrying her. I
don't want it to overshadow that, but I
think it's a very strong argument
because of how they refuse to even go
near it.
>> All right. Well, I I guess I suppose I I
can see that to from your perspective is
like looking at the picture as a whole
rather than just like, you know, just
being dismissive of some things because
it's not as bad, I suppose.
Um,
>> yeah.
>> But
>> I I think it doesn't I don't I don't
think it should be considered not as
bad. I don't think I want to consider it
worse or better.
>> Mhm.
>> I don't think it matters. I think it
just shouldn't have happened. And the
fact that he refuses to uh apologize or
retract any of that is enough. I I don't
think he should be forgiven simply
because time passed. I think he should
only if if he were to be regretful of
that and would want to be seen as not
thinking like that still, then it's up
to him to change that. It's not up to me
to hide that,
>> right?
All right. Well, I'm I'm just curious
cuz I'm trying to figure out like what
future goals you have with the Brony
Fandone account. Like I'm just trying to
figure out what your motive is. Like I I
mean I can accept that you are working
off-handed on this just kind of on your
own, especially since Sophie's no longer
running the account for reasons. Um but
I just I mean what do you want happening
to Saber Spark and Gabriel? Like what
what's the goal there?
>> I think that they've used their
platforms to harm people
>> and I don't think they can be trusted to
have platforms because they could harm
more people.
>> Okay. I think that also
them not receiving consequences
causes other people to be able to get
away with the same things,
>> right?
>> I think that it has to be
there. There can't be people that are
just allowed to do horrible things and
and then keep going like nothing
happened,
>> right?
>> Obviously, there are extents to all of
that. like I don't know if someone came
back after 30 years after something that
wasn't like you know child abuse. Um
I I'm that's a let me retry that. Um
>> like let's say let's say for example the
only thing that was against Black
Griffin was just the racism and it's
like 10 years down the road and he's
like visibly like changed as a person
that might be a little different. if if
if that was the only thing and then he
later down the line was like, "Hey, I'm
sorry for all that. Um, I understand if
you don't want to support me still, but
like I'm going to keep doing my thing
and I genuinely want to prove that that
is not me and and if he means it,
>> then yeah, like that that's much that's
very different." And um
I I I I was I was using this example uh
up until recently because I think
something happened, but uh I know that
Idubbbz is a YouTuber. I never watched
him personally, but he had a long
controversial past and then there was a
gap and he came back and then he was
making videos and then a little bit
after that he made this huge apology
video where he apologized for a lot of
the things he did in the past. um the
transphobia, racism, and he really went
in depth on how he understood that that
would never should have happened.
>> Yeah.
>> Um and because he did it without like it
being a reaction to someone calling him
out and because he was so in-depth with
it, I felt it was a very genuine and
good response that made me believe,
okay, that's great. I I was never like a
subscriber to him in the first place, so
I wasn't like, oh yeah, I'm going to
watch you now. But I I appreciated it.
But I think something happened recently
or there something came out. So, I don't
know. I'm just saying that that is a
context where I wouldn't be going around
talking about how like I I would never
watch Idubbbz um because
like he made that good video um and made
a good analysis of what he did that
seems to be him actually having
reflected and changed,
>> right?
>> Um
and if
And that's the thing, like he did racist
stuff that harm people,
>> but he wanted to make amends. And after
that point, if people don't accept that,
you have to be okay with that because
you did those horrible things. Those are
really bad things.
>> You You don't really get to be forgiven
just because you want to be. You have to
understand that the things you did have
impacts that are greater than that. Um,
and so if if Griffin only did all the
racism stuff and then what seemed
genuinely remorseful, that would be a a
different situation. But then you got to
add all of the predatory stuff
um and all the times he lied about the
predatory stuff,
>> right? Uh like no matter what you
believe when it comes to Claire or even
Destiny,
um there are a lot of things that aren't
excusable that is he's proven to have
done and a lot of times he's blatantly
said something that wasn't true about
all this.
>> Mhm.
>> And I I think saying he's innocent
is just lying
>> at this point. He has done things in
response to being called out that make
him guilty if not for everything for
some things.
>> Well, I suppose that like most people
want to like have something that's not
so much of a mix bag, I guess, is the
thing where it's just like, well, if
these things aren't true, why are they
in here? And if this is true, then it
should be in here. But these things
>> well I don't really present things that
are like if whenever anything is an
accusation
>> we the document specifies that
>> right
>> sometimes uh I think it needs to be a
little bit uh less nuanced because
sometimes it's a little bit more black
and white I feel
>> uh the situation but
um there there is a lot in there that
isn't just like word of mouth. Most of
it isn't
>> right.
>> Um but people want to act like it is and
I feel that is very
>> careless.
>> Right.
So, is there any critique that you have
gotten at least online that you feel
that you have at least taken to heart
and you see where people are coming
from? Cuz there are a lot of them and I
just I I'm not You seem a at least in
this video a little hyper aware of how
people will perceive it. So, obviously,
you must have at least heard some
critique.
Even when I do things that I regret, I
am aware that
sometimes I get angry because of how
things go. And I feel that anger is
justified, but it does lead me to not be
as uh precise as I'd like to be.
>> Um, and people take that as, oh, he's
just emotional.
But I I think that that is an unfair
assessment because
emotions isn't inherently a bad thing.
And I feel that a lot of this is
upsetting.
>> Mhm.
>> People should be more upset. Um,
I I recognize that I have a harder time
um getting people to see what I'm
talking about if I am you using uh uh
more emotion.
>> Mhm.
>> I do feel that that is not the most fair
way to assess
physical information. However,
>> Mhm. Um,
like I said, I do think that I messed up
with bringing things up on public on the
public timeline that I was not given
permission to,
>> right?
>> I should not have done that. You know, I
was in a I was under a lot of
I was overwhelmed at the time, but it
doesn't excuse me doing that. I
shouldn't have done that. Um,
but I don't think that I am responsible
for KP's video. Um, I don't I don't
think that I
have slandered anyone. I don't think
people are right to say that
I've ruined all chances of people uh
getting justice
cuz that that's just such a broad thing
to say. It it it dismisses the victims
on the person saying that to end.
>> They're they're saying that no one
should trust anything about any of this
anymore because of you, which is making
it's bringing that into the world. It's
it's them doing the harm at that point.
>> Mhm.
>> And I wish people would see that more.
Um
like even if you think that I have not
handled things amazingly,
>> Mhm. It doesn't mean that people should
be disregarded outright,
>> right? And I think that's that's what
Entra's video was more getting into and
why he decided to look into it because
he's just like to set like it's more
important that we focus on what is
actually being said instead of who's
attached to it, which is why he decided
to talk to Emily himself and separate
you guys from it so that at least people
hear what she has to say.
>> Yeah. It's just that a lot of the video
is also about Griffin, but very
casually. Um, he talks about it for a
while, but he doesn't go in depth enough
to give the full story on it while also
like I I understand that it's not meant
to be what this what the video is about.
>> But he goes on,
>> sorry. The only reason that the Black
Griffith stuff gets brought up at all
was just because that was one of the
reasons at least Emily gave us to
wanting to talk about it was cuz she saw
the Black Griffin's coverage, saw that
Sabers Spark was defending him and it
triggered her enough to want to talk
about it. That's why we couldn't kind of
not talk about the black reference stuff
cuz it's like
>> No, I understand that.
>> Yeah,
>> that's not the part I have an issue
with. It's just that instead of bringing
that up and leaving it at that or going
in depth about it because of how
connected it is, it's kind it's it's
talked about enough to give an opinion
on it that I feel dismisses a lot of the
crucial information with it while also
not going into it enough to explain
things to people who don't know what's
going on. So they get an idea from it
that is this is everything uh but it's
not that big of a story. Um
I I I wish it had gone either other way
where either
it was said that okay a lot of stuff
happened with this other creator Black
Griffin that led to Emmy wanting to come
out. Uh, we're not going to really touch
on that here, but like you can here's
resources to see that. Um, I wish it had
either gone that way or enter had made a
whole section dedicated to going on over
every important part. Like obviously
there is a lot of minutia, but he
doesn't go over all the most crucial
moments either. Um,
I I think it the middle ground really
does a lot of disservice to everything,
which hurts the whole setting,
especially when it does tie back to
Saber because Saber defends Griffin in
his uh response video.
>> Right. Exactly. Like, it's kind of hard
not to talk about the Black Griffin
thing considering that,
>> you know, Saber uses that as an
opportunity to defend him. And I think
that was uh that was Enter's whole point
even bringing it up. It's just like this
is supposed to be a video that defends
you and what you're getting accused of
to use what you're getting accused of as
an opportunity to defend this guy who
has like documents out on him right now
and people like actively looking into
this and deciding that what whatever he
did was wrong. Is that really what you
want to be doing right now? Is that the
smart move? And he's like, I don't think
it necessarily was cuz like,
you know, it
>> I just think a really telling part is
that a lot of the response to Enter's
video was people who were on one side
thinking the video supported that and
people who were on the other side also
thinking the video supported that.
>> Mhm. Um, I I saw people that thought the
entire Black Griffin and Saber Spark
situation was [\h__\h] citing the video
as proof that they were right. And I've
seen people on the exact opposite side
of all of it doing the same, which tells
me that I I don't think it did what it
was trying to do. Um, and I know it's
trying to present information in an
unbiased way, but I think what it
genuinely ended up doing was being so
it was attempting to be so legally okay
that it wouldn't get them uh enter in
trouble.
>> Mhm.
>> Uh to the point where
>> Can you blame them though? I mean, like,
[\h__\h]
>> No, I understand. Um, it's just that
it it it towed the line to a point where
I felt like it was very much only giving
one side
um
I I didn't think it was all that good. I
I I know people have differing opinions
and I know people are going to perceive
that as well, he talks bad about me, so
that's why I don't like it. But I don't
like Courtney either and I think her
video is pretty good. So, I don't know.
>> Yeah. I don't know. I You seem to be a
person of diverse opinion kind of thing.
It's not based on whether or not it
talks negatively or positively about
you. It's just like this is, you know,
it's whatever you feel like does the
best job at presenting the most
important information.
the people involved in all this. I have
now a very personal attachment to
helping.
>> Um, people can perceive that as me being
biased, but I I I trust Destiny. I trust
the Snapchat victim I talked to both of
them. And I don't they wouldn't be
as emotional about all of this in the
way that they are. If this was all
nonsense, they they don't gain anything
from this.
>> Mhm.
>> Um
>> well, what about uh what about Emily?
What do you feel on her?
>> I don't I don't think she gains anything
from this either. I I believe what
happened to her happened.
>> Mhm. And I think that's been a horrible
situation that has of how all this was
handled,
but people want to tie that back to the
Griffin situation. So, I feel like I
have to defend myself so that people can
see me as trustworthy so that they can
then trust Destiny and everyone else
again because I'm the one helping. So,
if they don't trust me, they don't trust
anyone and then it all falls apart,
>> right? Um, and I I people see that as me
putting myself in the middle of
everything and act thinking that I am
like the center of the universe, but I
that's it's just that I'm the one who
was running the account that had posted
all the information.
>> So, if people want to throw the account
away as a whole because of how they
perceive me, it's going to hurt other
people too. And that upsets me cuz that
that's making them lose. That's making
them hurt more,
>> right? I Okay. So, I mean, I guess I I
suppose I can see that from your
perspective. Like, you're very much
focused in on how the victims feel kind
of thing. And I I find that admirable,
you know. Um, and I I I just think that
like in in future, right, when it comes
to I think it was said best when Enter
um talked about it in a previous video
about the whole Star Giant thing that
when it comes to doing this sort of
thing, reputation truly is everything.
You know what I mean? Like it it
>> I just don't think I've done anything to
ruin that. I think people really want to
say that it has happened.
>> Yeah.
>> But I don't think it has.
>> Well, I mean, there's one thing I think
I should ask you about, and it's about
reputational, and it's definitely about
a criticism that I've seen of you,
>> and it's in regards to how you defend
Wootmaster.
>> Um,
here's the thing about Wootmaster. Um, I
because I've talked about stories of
this nature before. Um, in regards to
people like Earl Dubbie, right? I don't,
you probably don't know who it is.
That's the White Bowser.
>> That's a guy who's really who is really
into drawn anime children. That's all I
can really tell you about it.
>> Okay.
>> So, yeah, search him up. It's so much
fun. Um,
>> I'm I'm all right. Honestly, I believe
you.
Yeah. So,
Woot Master has had a a history kind of
with, you know, his artwork can kind of
be seen as controversial
for reasons being that like a lot of it
involves like characters canonically
underage or something like that. I'm of
the opinion that like irregardless, as
you say, I aged up the character. I
think it's very very weird to draw them
in specific situations irregardless of
age. Um I feel like you probably don't
feel the same way since you've defended
Woot Master. So can you just kind of
explain to me your feelings on like Woot
Master as a like a content creator
because they've been in controversy
before for this specific thing. And I I
I just was curious about like why you
would choose to defend that whilst also
trying to like expose somebody else for
grooming. It just it seems like a
contradiction to be like I'm okay with
uh drawings of underage characters in
certain situations, but I'm absolutely
going to go on die on the hill to say
that somebody groomed somebody kind of
thing.
I
think that's a very I'm not trying to
like be hostile or defensive.
>> I just think that's very shorted. No,
no. I
>> I I just think it's entirely different.
Like not even
>> like if you think one is bad or or both
are bad, that's fine.
>> I'm not I'm not even trying to debate
that. I'm just trying to say that there
are leagues different um and I if it
seems very
shortsighted to say that it's the same
thing and contradictory
um because
there are genuine people that exist that
are being harmed and multiple of them
>> in the Griffin situation and
and I think that Woot um fights for a
lot of people that need help. I I think
he is very genuine in all that.
If he ever did anything that Griffin
did, I would not be so uh
willing to defend him. In fact, I would
probably just not talk to him ever
again. And I don't really talk to him
all that much to begin with,
>> okay? But he hasn't done anything to
harm anyone as far as I'm aware.
>> And I don't really the
I don't want to argue this point because
I don't think it matters to the grand
scheme of everything. And I know people
don't like when I argue this and they
they act like I'm ruining everything
because I'm talking about it. But it's
I'm only talking about it cuz people
bring it up.
>> Mhm.
>> But I don't feel like artwork of
fictional characters, regardless of what
age or anything that they are,
has any effect on real people, unless
it's a drawing of a real child. And then
then that crosses the line greatly for
me. Mhm.
>> Um
I
if I had any thought that Woot Master
wanted to get with actual children, I
would not be talking about Woot Master.
>> Mhm.
>> In any good sense, at least,
>> right?
>> Um
but I don't think that he has that. I
don't believe that. Um, he's given me no
reason
to believe that. And I know people
I keep saying the same. I know people
this, I know people that.
I understand
that there is a lot of things
that would require explaining my stance
on and explaining how what the
differences are. And once I go into
that, the conversation's too
uncomfortable for people
>> and I think that they don't listen to
what I'm saying and they just go, "He
defended that thing." So, uh, therefore,
he she shouldn't be talking about
anything ever.
Um,
but I I don't think he has harmed anyone
and that's the difference for me.
>> I I I don't think it matters.
Well, I think we had a conversation,
right, about like the whole Nazis and
the brony fandom, how normalizing and
like how normalizing certain things can
also equally be harmful, right? If
you're like being like, "Nah, this is
normal, that's equally as bad." Or
saying like, "Nah, that's not as big of
a deal. That's equally as bad." Could
you not concede that maybe, you know,
drawing characters like that normalizes
the idea that people of that age can be
put in sexual situations and it can be
seen as fine. Like cuz that's
>> I think that's a lot more fair of an
argument than most people give. I I I I
agree that there is that you you are
making a fair argument there. Um
>> because that's my main argument when it
comes to it really. That's what I say to
everyone. It's just like, sure, these
characters may not be real, but drawing
them sexualized,
>> knowing the age that they are in the
show could normalize the idea for real
ch like real kids that watch the show
and love the show, seeing them like that
be like, "Oh, that could be normalized
for me, too." Like, that's my argument.
It's normalization of something that I
don't think should be. I I I I believe
that it should not be in a place where
like people uh that
people uncomfortable with it and people
who are minors can see. It should not be
accessible.
>> Mhm.
>> Uh it can't just be posted willy-nilly.
Like I I think that that is wrong. Um,
I
like I said, I think that uh dissecting
it, a lot of people will instantly
feel uncomfortable because the topic of
anything sexual can make a lot of people
uncomfortable.
>> Um, so I I think a lot of people will
not want to hear this next part, but I
think that there is a lot of
there's a lot of gray. There's a lot of
differences and variables in all this.
>> I don't think it's necessarily that um
like Smolder the Dragon from My Little
Pony when Woot Master uh looks at art of
them or whatever. I don't think it's
necessarily the fact that they are um
like a minor character that
is why he he
wants to have see art of that. I I think
there's a lot of different variables
where
and it's uncomfortable for me to talk
about too. I don't like defending. I I
don't I don't want a side in the war. I
just don't think he's a bad person. I
don't think he's hurt anyone. Um but I
think that but to explain why I think it
is different um from
uh
sorry what what was your question again?
I'm sorry. I I'm asking if you can see
to the fact that like Whoop Master's
artwork and the past artwork he's made
that has been controversial normalizes
certain things that are harmful and
therefore shouldn't be defended.
>> Yeah. So
I I would compare that to like people
that make like gore art. Like you would
you make the argument that that is
normalizing murder and therefore people
are going to be more likely to murder? I
I I I think that is while people don't
want to see it that way. It is kind of
one for one like pe people think it's
different
but that perception is just that one is
normal to draw and one isn't. I think
maybe it does normalize it in a way and
maybe that is bad but I don't know
enough to determine that that is
happening. I just think that there are
certain venues where if you want to do
that, go for it. I don't As long as it's
not hurting anyone, if it's not like
if it's not of a real person who is not
consenting to that or is a child and
therefore can't consent to that.
>> Mhm.
>> I I don't really care if uh a cartoon
dragon is being harmed because they
aren't being harmed because they're not
real. Um, so it it but in the sense of
it being normalized, I guess I don't
know for certain that it is helping um
actual predators get away with anything.
>> I I think that like things like Grand
Theft Auto, I think that there are
violent people that really like violent
games, but I don't think the violent
games made them violent people, you
know? I suppose so, but I think it's
more so how that artwork is being
utilized, right? Like when people use
Grand Theft Auto, they don't use that as
like a simulation to things that they're
going to, you know, do bad things in the
future.
>> I agree. I I don't think that Woot is
going to do the things either. I I don't
I I think it's the same in that regard,
too.
>> Sure. But like why even introduce a
sexual element to minor characters at
all? Like that doesn't seem very
necessary. Like you can sexualize
characters that are adults and that's
like you know they're in the territory
of that to do so. But most people are
just like these are the essentially
lolly lolli characters, right? Like it's
like do not lude the lolli. That's like
a big thing in most fandoms. It's like
don't [\h__\h] do that [\h__\h] Like
>> I think it's the same argu I think it's
a slippery slope argument and I I kind
of hate that argument. I'm gonna be
honest like
>> okay
>> like like with the like with what I was
saying with Grand Theft Auto, the same
thing can also be applied where uh
people or a lot of like people were
upset with Grand Theft Auto for
depicting violence and allowing you to
play as it and they were saying that
this was going to lead to more violence.
Um, and you could make the same
arguments for that where okay, well, why
would you uh need to do that when you
could have a game where you are nice to
everyone?
>> Why does it have to be an option? Um,
I I don't think it is necessarily a
desire to do these things in real life.
I don't think it has to translate to
that. And I think that people who do
have those inclinations
were going to also gravitate to doing
this out of real life anyways.
>> Uh I don't think I I don't think I I I
honestly I think there might be
something to it being so common and
accepted that it becomes so widespread
that people get away with more. I I
think that could be a possibility and it
could that could lead to actual harm
>> like what you were comparing with the
Nazi situation. I can see that.
>> I just can't confirm that that is
happening. So I don't want and I also
feel pretty safe saying that Woot Master
isn't a predator,
>> right?
>> So I don't want to condemn him for that.
And when he has fought for people,
uh I don't want to dismiss that just
because people are uncomfortable with
some of the things he does separate to
that.
>> Uh same like I don't want people
dismissing everything I'm talking about
just because they don't agree with
everything that it happens separately.
like I I I don't feel that I've given
anyone reason to distrust me and people
act like I have.
So I would give the same courtesy to I
don't feel like he has given anyone
reason to believe that he is going to do
anything with an actual minor or that he
is untrustworthy when it comes to other
things that he talks about.
So I don't believe that I should condemn
him just because people are
uncomfortable with him for other things
that he's not doing directly to them.
>> Right.
Well, I suppose to put it into the
little bit of perspective like artwork
like Woots where it's like minor
characters being drawn sexually have
been used to groom people. Am I saying
he's necessarily doing that? No. But
adding to the plethora of other [\h__\h]
that's on the internet that's being used
to groom minors isn't really the legacy
I would like to have. I wouldn't like to
have that legacy of like, oh, my artwork
was used by predators to groom other
kids because I normalize the idea of
kids having sex. Like that that's just
me, I suppose.
>> I I I think personally I would just
condemn the people that are doing that.
If if there are people, and I know there
are, don't get me wrong, I know there
are people that use artwork to groom
people, and I think the people that do
that should be condemned wholeheartedly.
>> Mhm.
>> I I just think that
it's taking that and then adding uh more
on top of it
>> out of caution. And maybe that caution
is warranted. I'm not saying it's I'm
not saying there's no I'm not saying
that you don't have any point at all,
>> right?
>> I'm just saying that
we can condemn the people grooming
people and I think we should. Um
I I I just don't think that Woot Master
is doing that. So I don't feel the need
to condemn him.
>> Okay.
All right. I mean, I guess that's where
we just kind of agree to disagree, I
suppose. Um, was there anything else
that you wanted to bring up or talk
about? Um, uh, any future plans that you
have like what's your current operative
at this moment?
>> I don't have many uh, when it comes to
Brony Phantom, I don't have any plans.
Um, I I um
if there's more information that comes
to light, I want to present it to people
and I want to get people back on track
with
making sure that people don't get away
with horrendous things because when they
do, people get hurt and then it becomes
normalized. I I understand that people
will interpret that as hypocritical. I
just I I just don't see the artwork as
inherently harmful. Um
I but I do think that
uh being inappropriate with actual
children uh repeatedly and also
allegedly sending minors your penis
is inherently harmful and in a lot less
of a gray area. Uh, so I want to make
sure that
that doesn't get a pass. Um, and uh, the
racist comments and posts and likes and
videos.
>> Mhm.
>> And anyone who acts like it is fine. I
don't want them to get a pass. I want
this to be Look how bad this is.
Everyone is on board knowing how bad it
is.
So no. So it it it stops being a problem
that people have to face because
everyone's on the same page that this
isn't okay,
>> right?
>> Do you at least concede to the fact that
like given, you know, Destiny's account
doesn't have the actual conversations
and even with uh the Snapchat account,
yes, she can prove she's talked to Black
Griffin. I'm not going to disagree that
that's not what's being presented, but
they don't have the evidence of
flirtatious conversations. The only
thing that comes close is just the gi jy
stuff, which I I can't argue is not
incredibly weird and creepy. Like I
that's that is objectively very strange.
>> But can you at least consider the fact
that like
their stories is just that just a
testimony for now. I'm not saying that
they are lying. I know you say that you
have no reason to believe that they are
lying and I don't know them personally.
So I can't like point and say you are
definitely a liar. I don't know. I don't
know these people. I've only talked
about them tangentially through content.
Like, but can you at least concede to
the fact that all we have right now is
just their word. That's not to say that
they are lying, but it's all we got
right at this moment.
>> I believe people should believe victims.
>> Okay.
>> I I don't think that they need mountains
of evidence to be believed.
>> I think that they have mountains of
evidence, but I don't think they needed
it. Um, and the and I I think people
want to separate them from everything
else because it makes it easier to
dismiss them as potentially wrong.
>> Mhm.
>> But think things keep happening. Things
keep coming out like where you were just
talking about how you agree that the
Deviant Art comments are very very weird
and creepy,
>> right?
>> Um, but that was only found much later
after all of this. Mhm.
>> Like it it is it's not a coincidence.
This all is part of the same situation.
This all adds to the same conclusion,
>> right?
>> Um
it the more that comes out, it's not
it's not, oh, this is something that's
bad coincidentally. Um it is it's
something that
exists because the other stuff happened
as well. This is all the same scenario.
It's all the same situation,
>> right?
>> I I I believe that people should be
assessed so that like if if they are
known to be a liar, then they can be
believed less. You know, boy who cried
wolf.
>> But
but Destiny
doesn't do that. So there's no reason to
disbelieve her. And I think that because
she says what happened to her happened,
that should be enough for people. I
think it's disheartening that it isn't.
>> Um, and Emmy was called a liar for
reasons that aren't fair. Um,
so I think that there was a lot of
wolves,
uh, you know, boy cried wolves calling
her a liar.
>> Mhm. um people that were liars
themselves also lying about her.
>> Um
so people need to be able to assess
situations better. People need to be
able to
come to better conclusions on given
information. But
having a lack of definitive proof, like
not having a videotape or the actual
image of what he gave,
>> that shouldn't be the definitive thing
for so many people. I think
I I I think pe victims should be
believed more. I think that that there
there will be times when there is a lot
less evidence than there is for this
situation
>> and you see how much there is for this
situation and people still don't believe
it and I I I think that sucks.
>> I think it just comes with the territory
of the internet, you know? I mean,
people are going to believe what they're
going to believe, you know? And I don't
even necessarily disagree with you. I
even say in my own video, not not every
single victim is going to have all the
evidence out in front of them. like even
for a lot of like other situations
like uh I can't there's not one that
comes to mind like immediately but I
know there was like a couple situations
that came out where there's not really a
lot of evidence it's just the victim's
word but because of how the person
responded to that victim's testimony
people are like oh this person's telling
the truth like because the response was
so bad and maybe that's what's been
going on with the Black Griffin stuff is
that that he's had such a bad response
so are that people are like, "Oh,
there's no way you didn't do this
because what you're presenting as your
defense is not good kind of thing. But
even then, I don't know if that's a
definitive." You know what I mean? Like
it's like it evidence is great because
at least that point like points to a
direction. At least that gives people
something. At least that shows intent
and stuff like that. But when you don't
have that, the the safest thing you can
do is just be like, uh, I will believe
you, of course, like believe victims of
course, but also, you know, just be
careful cuz you never know like stuff
can come out like things can happen.
>> I I think that caution is important, but
I think victims should be believed if
you know critical thinking involved,
victims should still be believed for the
most part.
>> Mhm. And then in this situation,
there's just a mountain of evidence that
supports them. There's I don't think
there should have had to have been, but
even with it, people aren't are choosing
to disbelieve them. And I think I think
that's that's horrible.
>> But yeah, no, I I totally get where
you're coming from. I think the
conversation does need to be a bit more
a bit less hostile. I think cuz I mean,
we've h I get it. We've had situations
like even like stuff like you know the
Slazo thing or the quite stuff and
whatever it may be and people are just
extremely hostile when they figure out
like when stuff isn't true and the
likelihood of somebody lying about this
is very very minimal. It's very very
small. Just because we've had a couple
of outliers doesn't mean we should treat
every single situation like it is the
outlier before we know for sure. And I
don't know the quite situation, but
people use that as a citation for like
not believing victims anymore,
>> and I hate that. But also, I know that
Quite and Slug are were in that same
live stream
being complete [\h__\h] So, I don't
know quite or that situation at all.
>> Mhm.
>> But I don't trust Quite either. So, I
don't think he should be used in any
kind of defense for that. I don't think
anyone should. I think that's a horrible
way to look at things that victims uh
shouldn't be believed because this this
victim was lying. This one wasn't a
victim. Maybe,
>> right? I I agree. I I think it needs to
be a bit more nuanced or at least at the
very least people should be more kind,
you know, and be like, well, this
happened to this person. It was a lie,
so why should I believe you? It's like,
that's a separate situation that's not
mine. Like, treat it differently,
please. You know what I mean?
>> Yeah. There's a lot of other scenarios
of people being victims and not being
believed. Um, and then later on people
find out that they were telling the
truth, but people don't cite that. They
cite the one that defends the big
YouTuber.
>> Yeah.
>> Um, I I don't think it's a fair
conclusion. I don't think it's having
learned a lesson. I think it's having
gained an excuse. Mhm. Well, I I'm glad
that we at least had this conversation
because at the very least I know that we
at least agree on things on the things
that are at least important. You know
what I mean?
>> Yeah.
>> Uh I appreciate you reaching out and
talking because I
I I do feel um somewhat better about
where we stand and being able to clarify
my my own positions on things, too.
And I mean, you know, I don't 100% agree
with everything you say, but at the very
least, you know, we've come to find a
better understanding of each other. I I
suppose.
>> Yeah. I mean, we're different people. Um
we we came in with differences. That's
>> uh things led here that of us uh you
know,
>> Yeah, for sure.
>> not agreeing,
>> right? But ultimately what matters is if
there's a predator in in this Brony
community, they don't get to predator
anymore.
>> True. Yeah. I mean that's hopefully the
goal of like a lot of these situations,
right? Like it's like I just want to
make sure that they are not allowed to
>> do it again. I suppose I mean I don't
know what efforts have because I don't I
I mean I don't know what the efforts
would take place in order to get other
than just getting them completely
removed. I don't know if that's like
what your goal is with Black Griffin or
whatever.
>> Like I said earlier, what I want is for
people that are going to abuse their
power to not have it. And I want people
that have harmed people to be an example
where they can't harm anyone anymore.
And then people understand that that has
consequences and then they don't harm
people.
>> Gotcha.
>> All right. Well, I I have pretty much
finished up most of my questions. Um,
was there any questions that you had for
me uh going forward or like anything
that you wanted to add, then now would
be a good time to do so?
>> Um,
I don't I don't I don't believe so.
>> Okay. Here's what I would at least
advise you do. Um, because I want you to
at least have a better perspective on
all the content that's been released.
Um, I'm not saying that you should do
these things. I'm not demanding you do
these things. I am saying that if you
want to move forward, you should
understand really what the criticism is
of you going forward. Um, I've watched
Beckett's video a couple of times just
because it talks, you know, kind of
negatively about me and I would like to
know what he had to say. It's harsh.
It's not nice, but it was important for
me to hear so that at least when I go
into conversations with others who ask
me about the video, I know what the hell
I'm talking about, right? I don't want
to be like, "Oh, this is what the video
says about me, blah, blah, blah." When
I've never seen it.
>> I get that idea, but this is a random
[\h__\h]
I he put a video out and it has more
important people than him in it.
>> So people are acting like it's uh it's
something worth giving time to.
>> Mhm.
>> But I think he isn't worth giving time
to. If if any of that is essential to
me, I will respond to it from someone
who matters that saying it. Um, if you
want to talk to me about the specifics
of it, uh, either in a recording or off
a recording,
>> I I will do that,
>> right?
>> But I don't want to give him the time of
day. I don't think anyone should. I will
respond to every criticism
if if that is what needs to happen. I
just won't respond to him about it.
>> Okay.
Well, I mean that is something I guess I
can give you a bullet point list for and
you can respond on your own terms. Um I
I was going to adi give advise maybe
giving it a watch, but I mean you don't
have to do it. I get it. Like it's it's
not nice. Let's just say and I get that
it's just like he's an [\h__\h] I don't
want to give him the attention and time.
You know what? Maybe you're sparing
yourself. Uh maybe you're sparing
yourself mentally from that. Um
>> yeah,
>> maybe that is for the best. I don't
know. But I just want you
>> I also do need that a little bit
honestly things while I am in a better
spot. It is um
>> you know
>> Yeah. But what I'm saying is that a lot
of people will be citing that video
further and further into the future. uh
whether that is to discredit you or
whatever it may be that I think it is
important to at least give it a watch
just so that you know what people are
where people are coming from because
when someone says you know something
that comes from that video and you're
just like what the hell are you talking
about like you'll know where it's coming
from and you know how to debunk it kind
of thing like it's better to have that
in your arsenal and at least have
knowledge of what's being said than to
it kind of come out of nowhere and
you're like what the where the [\h__\h] is
this coming from kind of thing but I
mean,
>> I mean, people make up things about me
all the time. Uh, and even if they're
citing things about me that are true or
things that are are that are kind of
true but out of context or whatever.
>> Mhm.
>> Um, I I don't think he matters enough
for me to do that. I think that the more
attention I give to him, the more he
matters, and I'd rather him just
continue to not
>> Okay.
All right. I mean, I guess I understand
it from that perspective. you want to
bring attention to the things that
matter and you don't want to give him
any more attention that you don't think
he doesn't deserve kind of thing.
>> I mean like people have criticisms of me
but I think he's blatantly worse in
every way. So I I don't really want to
say I'm not trying to say that as smug.
I'm just trying to say that as
I don't understand the people that cite
it
>> unless they just don't know who it is
>> and they don't really pick up on the
nuances of like why he's doing all this,
>> right?
>> Um
>> I mean, why do you think he's doing all
this?
>> It's in the name. Uh he's he's a rage
beater. He defends people that are being
SJWed against or whatever. Um, and and
and goes, "Oh, look how crazy they are.
They're still going on about this
situation. They still think this guy's a
predator. Why won't they give it a rest?
Here's here's their here's their stupid
fanfic here. They're asking for money
cuz they're poor. Why can't they pick
themselves up by their bootstraps? you
know, he just he just sucks. I'm sorry.
He just
>> All right. Well, I won't try to convince
you any further than that. I just
thought it would be a good idea in
future so that you can address it
properly. But, I mean, if that's that's
how you feel, I can't I can't convince
you one way or another. I mean, it's a
it's a tough watch. I I can tell you
from personal experience. Like people
retweet Keemstar in Drama Alert because
they think that at least the information
is informative,
>> but I think it worsens everything that
the citation is that
>> I I I would rather anyone else talk
about this than Killer Keemstar,
>> right? And I don't want to help create
another Killer Keemstar cuz right now
it's just a rando.
>> Like if it was Killer Keemstar,
I still wouldn't want to address it. But
at that point, I wouldn't have a choice
because they have influence.
>> Mhm.
>> But for now, this person doesn't.
>> Gotcha.
All right. Fair enough. I mean, I
thought I might have got might just
suggest the idea cuz like even I have to
watch stuff that's very negative about
me sometimes and it's better to at least
hear it and get it over with and then
cry about it for a day and then be like,
you know what, this [\h__\h] doesn't matter.
You know what I mean?
>> Like if you if if
like like I said, if you if you want to
tell me about everything that happens,
I'm very open to that,
>> right? I just don't want to give him
anything.
>> Okay.
All right. Uh uh I think we're kind of
wrapping up here. I'm like sore. I I
hate I hate this chair. Alex is right.
We need to replace this. This is [\h__\h]
[\h__\h]
But that will end the recording